Ab/eb Concertinas...

[Roger Hare]

I recently saw a very nice metal-ended 30-button Lachenal Anglo in the key of Ab/Eb.

I was told that it was an ex-Salvation Army instrument - it certainly sounded good to

me.

 

Are instruments in this key combination common? I could quite fancy one...

 

Thanks.

 

Roger

 

 

 

[Don Taylor]

Look up John Mock on Youtube.

[Dana Johnson]

A number of the less common keys were primarily intended to play with specific sets of instruments. I haven't seen any myself, but I hear a lot more about existing Ab/Eb 's than anything else except Bb/F. Given the prevalence of Salvation Army bands at one time, I'd expect there to be quite a few of these out there. I'd be glad to see more flat pitch instruments out there. I personally prefer a lot of the music I play set lower. I find I really enjoy playing G tunes in F for instance. The high pitches carry better, but the low ones seem more friendly somehow.

[Dana Johnson]

Just did some reading, and it seems a lot of band music was in Bb or Eb due to the comfortable pitches for the instruments in use. I figured that, remembering my school days on the Baritone Horn. Both those Keys are a natural for an Ab/Eb, like D and G are easy on a C/G.

Dana

[Alex West]

I'd say the Ab/Eb is reasonably common - at least as common as Bb/F and more common than G/D, F/C and D/A - but my sample size is quite small. On the old Cnet front pages there was an article (maybe it was by Wes Williams?) which compared the quantities of instruments made in the different key combinations. If you can find that article then you'll be closer to the precise answer.

 

Needless to say, I don't get much opportunity to play the Ab/Eb with other people so I've kept one of mine in old pitch as the existing tone is so wonderful, but the combination of a lower, less harsh tone than a C/G with most of the penetrating quality (more than you'd get with a G/D or F/C) is very attractive.

 

What a shame you missed Dick Glasgow's 39 key Jeffries (sold on ebay very recently) which was an Ab/Eb in an older pitch!

 

Alex West

[ceemonster]

i believe some among the irish concertina wizzes have or play a-flat/e-flat tuned boxes. this includes noel hill, who has at least recorded on this tuning and may own/have owned one. edel fox has also recorded at least one cd using an a-flat/e-flat concertina, i THINK. could swear in the liner notes of one of her recordings, she thanked timmy Collins for the loan of his. but perhaps it was a c#/g# and I'm raving here. more than one of the hybrid makers will whip you up an a-flat/e-flat, too.

Edited August 20, 2015 by ceemonster

[chas]

i believe some among the irish concertina wizzes have or play a-flat/e-flat tuned boxes. this includes noel hill, who has at least recorded on this tuning and may own/have owned one. edel fox has also recorded at least one cd using an a-flat/e-flat concertina, i THINK. could swear in the liner notes of one of her recordings, she thanked timmy Collins for the loan of his. but perhaps it was a c#/g# and I'm raving here. more than one of the hybrid makers will whip you up an a-flat/e-flat, too.

 

There are a couple of tracks on the Cormac Begley and Jack Talty CD which sound as if they're on an Eb/Ab - unless they're even cleverer than I thought. Some Irish fiddlers like to tune up to Eb, which sounds a bit brighter than D, and fluters will sometimes have an Eb instrument. So it makes sense for a concertina player to be in a position to join them. It's a great way to keep out the riff-raff!

[Takayuki YAGI]

I believe some of the survived G/D instruments are originally tuned in Ab/Eb. As Stephen Chambers indicated here.

I own one 'retuned' G/D which has additional screw hole to accomodate band lyre (please see the photo in this comment).

If I have a chance, I would like to play those instrument in original Ab/Eb tuning.

 

--

Taka

[Roger Hare]

Look up John Mock on Youtube.

 

...I hear a lot more about existing Ab/Eb 's than anything else except Bb/F...

 

I'd say the Ab/Eb is reasonably common - at least as common as Bb/F and more common than G/D, F/C and D/A...

...What a shame you missed Dick Glasgow's 39 key Jeffries (sold on ebay very recently) which was an Ab/Eb in an older pitch!

 

Thank you folks. Responding to a few of those very helpful replies:

 

Thank you Don, that's a nice concertina, and some nice tunes - I had not heard of John Mock before.

 

Two replies indicating that Ab/Eb is more common than perhaps I realised. This is encouraging.

 

I didn't miss DGs concertina on eBay, it's simply a little out of my price range at the moment. I think

that this is the instrument he is playing on the 'Scad the Beggars' tracks on YouTube?

 

Thank you folks.

 

Roger

Edited August 20, 2015 by lachenal74693

[Bruce McCaskey]

I'm surprised that ceemonster didn't comment on the new A/E Carroll that Noel Hill has been playing at recent concerts. I assume Noel played it at his California performances last weekend. While it's not the Ab/Eb tuning this thread has been focused on, it is a tuning that at least resonates with the theme of this thread.

 

I spent some time discussing that tuning with Noel recently and he played my own A/E instrument at times during the discussion. He commented how much he enjoys the richness of the lower pitch and during his concert I noted that he used his A/E to play a slow air.

 

I believe that both Frank Edgley and Wally Carroll offer new construction concertinas in A/E tuning. I bought mine about ten years ago after trying the one Tom Lawrence had. He said he liked the tuning because it let him easily play in a pitch that fit with pipers, and I bought one just because I liked the sound and feel of the lower tuning. That tuning always evokes positive comments from anyone that has tried mine.

[Ken_Coles]

I'd say the Ab/Eb is reasonably common - at least as common as Bb/F and more common than G/D, F/C and D/A - but my sample size is quite small. On the old Cnet front pages there was an article (maybe it was by Wes Williams?) which compared the quantities of instruments made in the different key combinations. If you can find that article then you'll be closer to the precise answer.

Here it is. I'd add one revision - I have now seen instruments stamped for C/G notes that appear to be originally in other home keys. It seems to take the preponderance of evidence to decide if an unusual tuning is original.

 

The census at the end combines old and modern - clearly G/D was quite rare long ago and popular now (just try putting a good used one up for sale!).

 

Ken

[ceemonster]

ceemonster did not comment on "the new A/E Carroll that Noel has been playing at recent concerts" because:

 

One: The thread is about A-Flat/E-Flat tuning, not A/E tuning; but more importantly---

 

Two: The new Carroll of Mr. Hill's is a "B" concertina. Unless he has two new Carrolls, and hid one from us. The new Carroll he played in our neck of the woods was a brand-new "B" Wally Carroll "Noel Hill" model.

 

He also played a spanking new B-FLAT Dipper "mini." it was a 12-key. he played notey reels on it and the music just rippled out of it.

 

Both of these brand-new "flat" concertinas sounded luscious. I'm not a huge fan of the "sharp" keys such as e-flat/a-flat anyway, so all this flatness was a treat.

[ceemonster]

"B" concertinas, and, hell, B-Flat concertinas, seem awfully likely suspects for thread digression shenanigans . . .

 

 

Timmy Collins told me in the mid/late 2000s he had a "B" Dipper on order. Noel Hill told his rapt audience recently that he fell for "B" in the late 70s or early 80s when he used to borrow and perform with fine concertinas belonging to Tommy McCarthy late of West Clare, who was then living in London, one of which was in "B." And I had forgot about that, that Tommy McCarthy's solo CD, "Sporting Nell," has some lovely stuff in "B" and "E." Including a wonderful set of "First Month of Summer" and "Blackberry Blossom" on whistle in B, that Kitty Hayes recorded on concertina in C and F. The Mulcahy Family have recorded that set in E-Flat and A-Flat. So if you're motivated to graze among the exotic keys, that would be a fun way to sample the different ambiance and feeling a set of the same tunes can have in different key orientations....

Edited August 21, 2015 by ceemonster

[adrian brown]

To return to the question of AbEb anglos and the Salvation Army - surely the tutor from 1888 makes this conncetion very clear? (After all, it's penned by one of the sons of General Booth!)

I picked up my own AbEb in rural Canada last year and I assume it must have ended up there as a result of missionary zeal.

 

Adrian

 

[Roger Hare]

 

...On the old Cnet front pages there was an article (maybe it was by Wes Williams?) ...

Here it is....

 

 

Copy taken. Also the associated WW article. Good stuff! Thank you.

 

 

...surely the tutor from 1888 makes this conncetion very clear?...

 

Copy taken also. Ta.

 

Roger

[mike byrne]

Here are some pictures of my 26 button Ab/Eb Jones.

As you can see the letters S and A are cut into the right hand fretwork.

At the top where the makers or sellers name usually is it says

The Salvation Army - Blood and Fire.

 

 

[Bruce McCaskey]

Ceemonster, I just assumed Noel played the same instrument in California that he played in Oregon, but in retrospect I should not have suggested what he may have played in your area. My apologies if you felt my comment was out of order.

 

I've never encountered an Ab/Eb but would enjoy the opportunity to try one some day. I always like the feel of the lowered pitches.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Bruce McCaskey

[Dana Johnson]

Noel Brought his brand new A/E to East Durham. Called it a B concertina I think because it had a B drone ( if it had a drone, can't remember ) like his C/G has. D drone. All his "D" tunes transpose to B on this instrument. Years ago he did bring over the Ab/Eb he used on one track of The Irish Concertina album. That was a Jeffries and while Wally's sounds great, I like both that Ab/Eb and Mark Bickford's A/E Jeffries better for their less gravelly bottom when the low notes are paired in "chords". Even in the C/G range, I generally prefer low chords on most Jeffries over the Wheatstone or Carroll versions for their smoother nature.