A New Kind Of Hayden Concertina

[Eddy LR17]

Hi everyone

My name is Eddy and I am the happy owner of the "Melodina", the square hybrid anglo-concertina made by Stephane Le Lan at Fontenay-le-Comte in western France. I live at 50 km south from Stephane's workshop.
I am a guitar/mandolin player for a long time and I have discovered the anglo concertina six years ago. What a cool instrument !
Easy to carry, easy to handle, always in tune, easy to play ... in the row.
(far less easy when I began to play in the key of D with my first C/G, in the irish style).

I was reading the topic "Converting Duets: Maccann To Hayden?" and ceemonster was talking about a "melody playing" Hayden concertina. That's funny because I was thinking about a "melodic" Hayden concertina for a long time and since this week it's a project in progress with Stephane.
So I have signed up to this forum to give my point of view.

I call it "melodic Hayden" because I want to play melodies with both hands like an anglo. I don't mind about playing chords while I play melody because I see the concertina more like a solo instrument as the violon, the flute and not like an accordion. And also because I play in a band.

This thing will have 34 keys from G3 to D6, almost the range of the fiddle, three rows each side.
A kind of anglo-german concertina with the logical and easy wicki-hayden layout.
I could tell you more next time after seeing Stephane.
Cheers.

Eddy

[MatthewVanitas]

Hello Eddy, glad to hear that you're considering some creative takes on the Hayden system! I myself am trying to track down an accordion maker in Colombia who can maybe make me some unusual type of small, square Hayden, using accordion-type techniques.

 

We have a thread in the General section about Stephane's other work; he has some cool ideas for merging concertina and accordion concepts.

[Eddy LR17]

Hi Matthew, I have already read the thread about my friend Stephane in the General section, I was glad for him.

Colombia is far far away from Europe, the nearest person I know in south america is a former workmate 's son in French Guiana, but he is not musician at all. I knew a french luthier in Brasil, a mandolin maker but he is dead now. Good luck in Colombia.

About my future hayden concertina, it will have these specifications :
- rectangular sides because of easier availability of rectangular bellows here (and less expensive than hexagonal ones)
- accordion reed blocks
- melodeon style buttons in straight line (no slant).

[MatthewVanitas]

Oddly enough, I have met a Frenchman here: Jean Francoise Chaudeurge, builds harpsichords here in Bogota (http://clavecines.com/). I'm supposed to swing by his workshop sometime this month to check it out. I don't know if he builds clavichords too, but if he does and they're remotely affordable I may be sorely tempted by that once work starts picking up. In the meantime I intend to arrange some early clavichord and organ pieces for Duet concertina.

 

Seems we have several folks these days looking at square Haydens; I'm pretty fond of the square boxes myself, like the original Wheatstone Duett, and the Henry Harley square Anglos.

 

With your 34 keys, is that only partially chromatic then?

 

 

So far as not chording on Haydens, I'm in the opposite end of the spectrum. I would much rather have less overlap and more range at either end, since I depend heavily on low root-fifth chrods, basso continuo, etc. I play in small groups when I play in groups at all, and do a lot of solo so definitely need harmony.

 

Looking forward to seeing your custom. Definitely seeing any makers adding Hayden to their repertoire is exciting. I found two guys with Hohner 3-row accordions jamming in a parked van, and from them got the phone# of an accordion technician in town. If he at all cobbles together locally-made accordions, and they're remotely affordable, I want to get him to make me something like a small 30-button Hayden with only a few chromatics.

[ceemonster]

[[i see the concertina more like a solo instrument as the violon, the flute and not like an accordion.]]

 

Salut, you are playing my song with that statement!

 

Your project sounds fascinating. Hope to see bulletins as it progresses!

[Eddy LR17]

With your 34 keys, is that only partially chromatic then?

 

Fully chromatic from A3 to d6.

At first sight, 34 keys seems few comparing the standard hayden duet concertina. But don't forget we are talking about a "only melody playing" instrument. We don't need to play melody AND chords in this case.

 

Here is the layout : https://copy.com/MHpdBjwFQjBd

 

However, I guess this new hayden would be able to play in the "harmonic style". And also playing chords for accompaniment.

What do you think ?

Edited September 10, 2014 by Eddy LR17

[MatthewVanitas]

Fully chromatic from A3 to d6.

 

 

Ah, I see now. So it's about 2.5 octaves full chromatic, no overlap, starting on the low G on the left, but starting at the Bb on the right. Is there a particular reason that you go below your C on the left hand side, or is it just a matter of that being just to expand the range?

[Eddy LR17]

That's the reason, to have a extended range.
And then on a C/G anglo concertina, middle C is also on the left.

[Eddy LR17]

Just for info, my first project was the "Elise Plus", a copy from the Elise 34 keys with a few added keys.
A 40 key Hayden Duet concertina. It was more comfortable for most tunes I play. But not enough.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Wait, you actually own an Elise Plus custom? Same maker or made by you?

 

I would love to see a photo of that in the photo thread at the top of General Disussion!

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

Was this "Elise plus" an entirely custom built instrument or a (rather heavy) modification of a stock Elise?

 

I would also love to see some photos of such instrument!

[Eddy LR17]

No, I don't own an "Elise Plus" it was only a personal research to improve the Elise.
I've had the idea to buy a Elise and then to modify it, but that was too tricky with only 4 and 5 keys per row.

Building a new custom concertina with the layout I wish, was a better solution and knowing Stephane I was sure to get a good quality instrument.

In theory, this concertina will be finished at the beginning of next year.

You will see photos, and perhaps a video, at this time.

[Don Taylor]

So none of the concertina layouts that you have posted actually exist?

[Eddy LR17]

Sorry not yet, the only project in progress currently is the "melodic" Hayden layout.
I have posted the other layouts to give ideas and eventually to discuss pros and cons.

[MatthewVanitas]

So none of the concertina layouts that you have posted actually exist?

Though in fairness the man does own a hybrid Anglo-melodeon, so he seems serious about experimentation...

[Don Taylor]

 

So none of the concertina layouts that you have posted actually exist?

Though in fairness the man does own a hybrid Anglo-melodeon, so he seems serious about experimentation...

 

I did not mean to imply that Eddy was not serious, not at all.

 

I initially read the posts as if these various Haydens had been constructed and then realised that maybe I had misread them.

 

I would be interested in hearing opinions (especially from Inventor and the other experienced duet players) about how big or small (or even existent) the overlap area should be on a duet concertina. What are the considerations/tradeoffs?

 

I recently acquired a CC Peacock with a limited overlap (just c' to g') and I am still wondering how limiting this might be. FWIW this is the same amount of overlap (just c' to g') that exists on Crane 48B. It is interesting to me that a Crane 55B has the same range as the 48B, but a larger overlap (c' to c), so a larger overlap seems to be a more desirable featurethan having a greater range?

 

In the last few days there have been proposals for Haydens with no overlap and for Haydens and Cranes with total overlap

 

No overlap will give you more range for a given number of buttons which is intuitively a good thing, but what do you lose by having no overlap?

 

Why did Crane opt for more overlap instead of more range when he designed the 55B?

 

I suspect that it might be easier to form harmonies for the higher register notes on a Crane 55B that it is on a Crane 48B (or on a Hayden 46B vs. a Hayden 42B). Is that critical or even true? You can form the same harmonies by pressing two buttons on the RHS. Is there something else you get from a large overlap?

 

There has been some discussion about 'bilateral' ends and a larger overlap would help with this, but I am not sure that this is anything more than a concept at this time so we do not really know if it is useful or not.

 

Puzzled,

 

Don.

[Geoff Wooff]

I guess some of the answer to the desireabilty of 'overlap' comes with the name 'Duet'.... being able to play two parts at the same time. However ,for some reason I find my duet playing resides in the area of the overlap, at least from where buttons get pressed on the left hand.

 

My wife says I should be using chords an octave lower than the melody... but to my ear a closer relationship of chords to melody sounds better.

 

On the Maccann with an octave overlap I was always up there at the top of the left hand... on the 46 Hayden it is the same... depending on what key I'm playing in.

 

A close review of the Henry Stanley arrangements for Maccanns or those made by David Cornell ( both available at www.concertina.com) will show to what extent a decent overlap is usefull.

 

When I first began on Duets I thought " Ah, this overlap amount is important"..... but now I just see it as availble range on each hand and as long as there is no GAP between the two keyboards then all will be well for continued melody playing across the two hands . When swapping the principle melody to the left hand then, even if it is being played an octave lower, a greater upward range of notes is desirable.

[Łukasz Martynowicz]

Back when I was considering how big instrument to build, I've looked a lot on sheets of music I wanted to be able to play in the future. And I found that the overlap is crucial to be able to move both melody and accompaniment up or down within a single piece of music. When melody goes down to the LHS then you no longer play on a duet… Or when accompaniment should move up an octave. In both cases you're left with non-duet techniques of making an interesting arrangement.

 

The whole recent discussions on mirrored and no-overlap layouts have already raised some interesting questions: does a mirrored layout will trully be faster to play (due to doubled size and weight of the instrument) than a no-overlap small melodic instrument? And are they really melodic only? For Geoff above, a mirrored layout could be even better at playing harmonies close to the melody. I like an octave gap between melody and accompaniment, so for me a no-overlap would be better, but overlap of at least an octave is the best option.