bass/treble clefs piano-score practise

[kevin toner]

As mentioned previously on another thread/forum, I’ve not yet got round to using recording as a means of refining practise, but I do hope to produce clear sound recordings very shortly as I quickly settle into a more comfortable method of playing.

 

I’ve meanwhile stumbled on additional revelations on technique in tandem with revisiting the sheet music rather than lazily by memory. This is keeping me going although I still anticipate occasional recordings becoming a form of practise diagnosis too, soon!

 

Since my last post of ‘Memories of You’ on the music discussion forum, I feel like I’ve had 50 or so pivotal self-learned lessons. Even as I speak I am constantly assessing everything I’m doing until I am entirely comfortable. I anticipate great progress on ‘Winter Wonderland’ and look forward to breaking freshly into each of the many alluring 1930s jazz standards and the likes.

 

This is a very satisfying, fairly transitional, stage to be at in my development. Looking forward to much progress!

 

My advocacy of thumbs through has now been reinforced with yet another unusual advocacy [ie for me] for hand straps as well. I would never in my wildest dreams have thought I’d be approaching the technique of my Granddad due to the constrictions involved. How on earth am I now playing bass notes fluently on T-T with thumbs fully through and hands tightened/constricted with straps? Beats me!

 

I’m now becoming comfortable with all of “MoY” on the Allegro side of Moderato, since making these decisions to strap up, although now getting used to a few fingering changes including one reverted change having tried out an arpeggiated chord placement change to no avail over the last 2 months – the problem with the latter being the ‘weak interdependency of the 3rd finger on lowest notes’ despite hand comfort.

 

Here’s a list of recent findings as I develop.

 

1. Listening &/or recalling Granddad playing and discussing;

2. Thumbs fully through straps

3. Hand straps on (starting loose and working towards tighter as dexterity improves – I’ve still got a few notches before I reach the tightness Granddad was at – the mark on the straps are still there and I’m glad I decided to get them back on the concertina): the obvious advantage is increased control but greater discovery/cognisance of the bellows...;

4. Lower shoulders at difficult passages to release stiffness and promote the following:

5. use/experiment with hand positioning before scrunching up shoulders and using unnecessary upper arm work. Vertical & horizontal rotation of the wrist, and door handle action turning from forearm too: can all unlock difficulties of reach. As mentioned above, getting the right leverage can sometimes beat comfortable hand configurations e.g. in my case, if too much demand put on the aforementioned interdependency weakness of the 3rd finger at high tempo arpeggiated chordings;

6. Revisit music score and discover or search for the intention of the writers if it’s there and worthwhile. The value of notes can be over/under-estimated during familiarisation/s especially if a flurry of notes are involved as in piano scores.

 

Also, amazing progress going on in the Roberton scores in particular! Mairi’s Wedding; Come Along; Westering Home; Air Falalalo; Mingulay Boat Song.

[kevin toner]

5. ...in my case, if too much demand put on the aforementioned interdependency weakness of the 3rd finger at high tempo arpeggiated chordings;

6. Revisit music score and discover or search for the intention of the writers if it’s there and worthwhile. The value of notes can be over/under-estimated during familiarisation/s especially if a flurry of notes are involved as in piano scores...

 

at No5: I felt that it was merely my 3rd fingers that had a slight degree of interdependence [not feeling fully independent and not as quickly acting in independence whilst one or more other buttons are depressed]. All other fingers are conversely excellent in their independences!

 

My 3rds are the only fingers that produce a strain when operating independently in independence exercises. I feel that they're perhaps intrinsically linked to [or dependent to a degree on] the pinkies, although I may be wrong and that they're tied by perhaps tighter ligaments - Does anyone have the same thing?

 

This might be something that can be gradually soothed albeit I'm very sceptical as it hasn't ironed-out already! If it does then I'd definitely refinger some arpeggiated chords.

 

at No6: when I say over/under-estimated value, I may have given the wrong impression, of defaulting on crotchet note lengths. What I basically meant was 'knowing when to release the note from depression' i.e. in terms of what the 'stacatto to legato' articulations are of the phrasing [ie articulation/dynamics/etc. meaning of phrasing].

Edited May 12, 2012 by kevin toner

[Ransom]

My 3rds are the only fingers that produce a strain when operating independently in independence exercises. I feel that they're perhaps intrinsically linked to [or dependent to a degree on] the pinkies, although I may be wrong and that they're tied by perhaps tighter ligaments - Does anyone have the same thing?

 

It's not just you. The third finger lacks an independent extensor muscle, for one thing.

[kevin toner]

My 3rds are the only fingers that produce a strain when operating independently in independence exercises. I feel that they're perhaps intrinsically linked to [or dependent to a degree on] the pinkies, although I may be wrong and that they're tied by perhaps tighter ligaments - Does anyone have the same thing?

 

It's not just you. The third finger lacks an independent extensor muscle, for one thing.

 

Thanks for sharing that it's a universal thing.

 

This would then make a good watchpoint for those looking to increase the strength of their third fingers, beyond limitations, in vain.

 

Knowing this, I'm glad I made the concious effort recently to re-finger back to my original configuration, i.e. on the cited example bar - a 3 note bass chord, which with a little inward horizontal wrist action (in this particular case) has been no problem ergo in arriving at the stipulated tempo. That said, for the time being, I may stick with the 'fall into place fingering' (i.e. best hand comfort configuration) option for the slower rendition, but certainly not at Moderato.

 

The instance on "MoY" is interesting as there is a variable bar that will not permit substituted fingering, but which incidentally works perfectly naturally with the third finger because it has to act interdependantly with (as I use) the index - phew!. This is the arpeggiated chord at "seems to be" as repeated at "and they all". The problem bar then occurs slightly afterwards (in introducing the bridge at "How I wish" as repeated at "Happy yester"), where the exact same chording requires complete independence from the first executed finger, which again incidentally, but conversely, permits substituted fingering - phew again!

 

Each bar on "MoY" has had its challenges and lessons, but this was the final one that'd been troubling me for too long - good to know why now with confirmation, thanks again!

 

For this particular arp'd chord, on a T-T EC, which is my range, it's the tenor C that has to be pressed first on the RHS as I have cleverly swapped a C2 for a C3 and likewise with G to straddle an E3 (ie C3,E3,G3).

 

Alternatively, a B-T EC would be able to play a G2 first (G2,C3,E3), but it would have to be a 56key B-T to reach the very final top note at the DC double arp'd chord; and for all I know that might entail different problems.

 

Yes, a Bass concertina would marginally succeed in playing the correct sequence of C2,G2,E3 but would miss out on much of the treble stave work of the score and would have to play simply the bass clef alone. There's also a contra bass Bflat (Bflat1) at a point in the chorus and in the verse that is marginally beyond a typical EC bass' range. However, this is fortunately a double octave Bflat - so there's no disaster of losing the Bflat1 and therefore doing as I do now, playing a lonely Bflat2, which is surely quite deep enough sounding. I'm often happy to lose the lower of the double-octaved notes within the bass clef when and if they occur, as I believe it's not detrimental. When I can't reach a singular contra-bass note, I simply raise the octave to bring the note into the baritone range i.e. typically to C3 upwards on standard T-T ECs; or typically G2 upwards for B-T ECs.

 

Glad that the discussion has opened up this other facet of the learning, which I'd also been trying to explain on the wrong forums. There's still a lot not been discussed here, but perhaps some of the above things are good starters for ten!

[kevin toner]

Now Roberton!

 

His scores have few notes, but their general difficulty, with the exception of Westering Home in the key of A, emanates from being written in keys with 1 flat or sharp, i.e. 3No. in G and another in F from the 5 in my repertoire. As we all know by now, such keys are not winners on EC, due to the confinement suffered on having to play intensely to merely the middle 2 rows of the layout.

 

However, here’s another of my curiosities that’s significant enough to go onto my ‘curious notes hall-of-fame':

 

It turns out to be a 3 note RHS chord when combining treble/bass clefs. Here's a link to such chords, accumulating here

 

I’m beginning to think that some of the arrangers that I’ve been incidentally focussing on happened to write their scores using ECs!

 

This particular example is stamped right at the beginning of “Mairi’s Wedding” in the first bar where the chord is hit six times in a kind of “We Will Rock You” type (..> ..>) rhythm, which is supplemented on the LHS with a low D3 (and if you have a B-T EC, if not a piano, then a low G2 on the RHS can also be added).

 

This chord happens to reoccur as the most difficult chord in the poco marcato phrase at hill-ways and later at shieling [incidentally all reachable on a basic treble EC, despite a supplemental G4 note on the LHS]; and also happens to be pivotal in the arrangement of "Air Falalalo" as I’ll mention later.

 

Firstly, I recall when an orchestrator Roy Fox was introducing a medley containing (thirdly) a brief rendition of "Marta", which had seemed to recite or stumble on a difficult but momentary chord combination from Marta when it was played intoxicatingly by the xylophonist during Fox’s verbal introduction of the Medley to the audience. Although when the “Marta” section had arrived, the passage that had these particular chords was skipped. Perhaps it was too much to implement in full orchestral terms and yet possibly too good to ignore...

 

I imagined, from that point on, that an introduction can act as a primer or aide memoire to key and/or challenging passages, notes, and chords.

 

This is what I’m gaining from Roberton’s heavily stressed G chording to introduce “MW”, not as a [grade 1] pianist who would play it blind, but as a concertinist who’d struggle not merely with the instance on “MW”, but surely also with its instance on “AF” too where the chording is not merely pivotal at the last word of each verse (i.e. eye; sing; song) or at the end of each chorus, but where the correct fingering is absolutely critical to the ascending 3rds shortly beforehand en-route to the G chording. See link to "AF" notation here

 

There’s a slight ‘coming of age’ story about all this including the common reassertion in regard to playing such chords in the key of C as follows!

 

It was merely a week ago that I’d realised that this - basically triangular shape G chord of thirds (ie G3,B3,D4 - G3 as the root base button) - should be played in a ‘middle, 3rd, index’ configuration. I’d initially entrusted an opposing ‘pinky,3rd,middle’ that was intermediately working for me on the same chording at "Air Falalalo" as for some reason I’d been trying to avoid the textbook ‘middle, 3rd, index’ [aka 3,4,2 – for block chords and progressions: R. Carlin 1977 p17, which Carlin cites will ”...develop good habits”*] consciously in order to strengthen my 2,4,3 hand through the years as that had been invariably weaker except inversely stronger when reaching for the piccolo end; and I think because I’d been conversely discovering greater possibilities using the latter for certain things, [ps as unfolds] e.g. probably high pitched chording among other things. No, I think I remember now: I remember being less dexterous in reaching for lower notes on my relatively recently acquired 56key T-T - in mid 2003 - having been hitherto accustomed to a treble (1896 New Model). I think the 2,4,3 configuration might have come to my aid at certain times whereas now it probably won’t be an issue. I won’t know for sure until I re-chart the territory that made me think this. I’ve been focussing on very few songs in my repertoire during the last year due to exploring bass clef – I think I’m now over the worst and can now progress back on to the rest of my repertoire.

 

I’m sure 3,4,2 Vs 2,4,3 has undoubtedly been debated here before. I’d personally like to concur with Carlin’s recommendation, especially now when I can see that it is more aligned to the orientation of the keyboard axis despite appearing more scrunched than the latter does. It is however, as I implied a moment ago, an advantage that disappears the further up that the middle finger has to travel until it struggles to bend, i.e. at the higher notes.

 

There’s obviously a crossover point when one beats the other and I suppose this differs from player to player.

 

On “AF”, I’d tried to do the latter too low [at G3 as root]. The strain prompted me to employ the aforementioned pinky configuration, i.e. swap the index with the pinky (5,4,3), before opting for Carlin’s 3,4,2. In fact, I’d contend that 5,4,3 is equally if not more comfortable excepting 1) the ascended 3rds in “AF” and 2) when phrased in “MW” during the poco marcato bar.

 

I’d originally dropped the G3 in this poco marcato phrase over the last few years until recently... - laziness!

 

However, I’d initially struggled in adding this G3 based on the ‘pinky,3rd,middle’ (5,4,3) configuration, which is the next most comfortable triangular configuration of scrunching the 3 fingers together that low down. Interestingly on the LHS [at the third chord along in the phrase – a C4 rooted triad block chord] I appear to be having no such trouble whatsoever in keeping with the non-Carlin 2,4,3 [which - I say once again - was a triad configuration that I’d appeared to be formerly advocating perhaps inter alia a former lack of dexterity] even although it is merely half a button space lower down than the C4 example on the LHS higher than the comparably uncomfortable G3-rooted equivalent on the RHS.

 

[ps: This tells me what my make-or-break point is in my ability to play non-Carlin [figure of speech] 2,4,3 configurations as low as possible, i.e. comfortably in phrases. This point for me is at the root G3 triad on the RHS, which I repeat launches Roberton's "MW". Nothing is esoteric in all this in that the composer has simply fronted a score in the key of G with a very plain block chord in G, which albeit happens to need the EC players' utmost attention. Again, it's not something that would tax a pianist.]

 

I went to the tina there momentarily to try nevertheless substituting this C4 block chord on the LHS with a (Carlin friendly) 2,4,3 and there was equally no trouble excepting a slight unfamiliarity. However, I know I won’t be adopting the Carlin configuration here because, on further inspection, when the same chord is played in the chorus at Heel for; and at All for, the phrasing (sequence) will only permit the non-Carlin method at speed. I have a secret though at this point – I let the index finger pad play both C and the above G simultaneously for an even smoother transition. If I make any change, I might adopt this finger pad trick during the poco marcato phrase instance albeit not strictly necessary, but simply to induce the memory that it’s required elsewhere.

 

Which brings me full-circle!

 

This would be the very same reasoning behind why I would want to introduce “MW” with the Carlin configuration (with the G3 triad chord) rather than the equally comforting pinky configuration, i.e. to simply familiarise with the configuration because of the demand for it challenge of it when sandwiched within at the poco marcato phrase. A veritable warm-up as implied earlier!

 

Before anyone asks, I just tried there to do the two buttons’ finger pad trick on the G3 chord, but couldn’t bend the 3rd finger’s first joint in the same manner as the index finger. Applying the index that low down also means too much travelling for the index up to the subsequent chord. Therefore, I believe I now have the piece perfected. Simply now a matter of familiarising on that final single fingering change, i.e. to play the RHS G3 triad chord throughout “MW” & “AF” using the Carlin method.

 

Learning the hard way one might say!

 

However, everyone’s different, or as Ransom has pointed out above, not when 3rd fingers are involved.

 

Feel free to add, agree or disagree!

 

• [Carlin's recommendation - as asterisked above - also appears to be very helpful for easing certain (albeit a minority of) progressions in traditional fiddle compositions. I think, I perhaps made an early mistake by over subscribing to Carlin's recommendations at the expense of equally necessary 'index-middle' progressions, although I'm happy I've strengthened in a 3-finger respect. I'm still a little annoyed by having realised recently that 'index-middle' playing appears to be far more prevalent for the majority of progressions. However, it's great when you can easily command 3-finger progressions when necessary. I will however have more catching up to do as a result in choosing what's best for progressions in tradition fiddle music, whether it's: 1) index-middle playing; or 2) three finger playing, as each definitely does have its place, i.e. on a bar-to-bar (not tune-by-tune) basis.]
  

Edited May 14, 2012 by kevin toner

[kevin toner]

 

 

...Here’s a list of recent findings as I develop.

 

1. Listening &/or recalling Granddad playing and discussing;

2. Thumbs fully through straps

3. Hand straps on (starting loose and working towards tighter as dexterity improves – I’ve still got a few notches before I reach the tightness Granddad was at – the mark on the straps are still there and I’m glad I decided to get them back on the concertina): the obvious advantage is increased control but greater discovery/cognisance of the bellows...;

4. Lower shoulders at difficult passages to release stiffness and promote the following:

5. use/experiment with hand positioning before scrunching up shoulders and using unnecessary upper arm work. Vertical & horizontal rotation of the wrist, and door handle action turning from forearm too: can all unlock difficulties of reach. As mentioned above, getting the right leverage can sometimes beat comfortable hand configurations e.g. in my case, if too much demand put on the aforementioned interdependency weakness of the 3rd finger at high tempo arpeggiated chordings;

6. Revisit music score and discover or search for the intention of the writers if it’s there and worthwhile. The value of notes can be over/under-estimated during familiarisation/s especially if a flurry of notes are involved as in piano scores...

 

 

ps: 7. perhaps remember to practice what you preach, i.e. if you've ever been an advocate of utilising your choice of duplicated-button (available to EC players in all Eflats/Dsharps; Aflats/Gsharps). My underlying primary policy, since I started out, which I'm sure'll be pretty universal among most players/learners: is to mentally tag your duplicate depending on whether your playing in flats or sharps mode, i.e. if flattening an E then choosing the duplicate next to the E; or if sharpening a D then choosing opting for its twin next to the D. Same applying to the Aflats/Gsharps. What I'd be preaching though for bass/treble clef piano score stuff is to refrain from the principle in lieu of chosing what's best for fingering comfort.

 

pps: 8. related to 7, I'd been conversely defaulting on the latter principle and was in a quandary of swapping fingers on a particular button (mid-note) for certain unreachable chorded progressions, i.e. on, all things, the opening intro bar to "MoY" up until 1-2 weeks ago. This is a key progression during a minum, which is repeated in all choruses at "Seems to"; "And they"; and "Ev'rything". What was I saying in my last post about Roberton heavily-stressing the problem EC chord right at the beginning of the piece? Yes, he's not alone, c/o the LWM Co.'s arrangers, in this case for Eubie Blake. Trust me to take on songs with key chords/progressions that are a nightmare for EC. It's been pure coincidence that the arrangers have started their pieces on these. Again, nothing as esoteric as "surely they're composing with an EC", as much as I'd like to believe. When I chose the antithetical duplicate for this progression, I asked myself "why didn't I do that 9 months ago?". Before swapping strategy to 'utilising antithetical duplicate' from 'mid note finger swapping' I tried desperately to finger swap without detriment at high tempo, but my T-T - because of its sensitivity - detects the change, albeit not during slowere tempos when there's time to swap.

 

ppps: 9. [Almost at the starter for 10 pun]: There's however one other difficult progression in the piece requiring a different kind of move that I've done before on other songs but haven't discussed yet! This entails a finger pad that must slur from one button to another during an actual progression. Not saying where! Students will have to find for themselves. Till now, i.e. the last minute ago, I've been making that particular finger cross-over by 'travelling' it as quickly as possible since within a flurry of notes that probably mask the travelling. However, over the course of a mere 30 seconds, I've managed to get the finger pad to drape across the neighbour two button crossover with ease - phew! Final lesson completed on "MoY". YESSS!

 

pppps: 10. related to 9, write on this forum discussion with your thoughts and you might well discover [virtually] another revelation before arrived at in the real world.

[kevin toner]

...the textbook ‘middle, 3rd, index’ [aka 3,4,2 – for block chords and progressions: R. Carlin 1977 p17, which Carlin cites will ”...develop good habits”*] consciously in order to strengthen my 2,4,3 hand...

 

I should have mentioned - to avoid confusion - that Carlin uses a different numerical nomenclature for fingers: Thumb = 1 ; Index = 2; Middle = 3; Third = 4; Pinky = 5.

 

Apologies, for not pointing this out initially!

[kevin toner]

...

 

pps: 8. related to 7, I'd been conversely defaulting on the latter principle and was in a quandary of swapping fingers on a particular button (mid-note) for certain unreachable chorded progressions, i.e. on, all things, the opening intro bar to "MoY" up until 1-2 weeks ago. This is a key progression during a minum, which is repeated in all choruses at "Seems to"; "And they"; and "Ev'rything". What was I saying in my last post about Roberton heavily-stressing the problem EC chord right at the beginning of the piece? Yes, he's not alone, c/o the LWM Co.'s arrangers, in this case for Eubie Blake. Trust me to take on songs with key chords/progressions that are a nightmare for EC. It's been pure coincidence that the arrangers have started their pieces on these. Again, nothing as esoteric as "surely they're composing with an EC", as much as I'd like to believe. When I chose the antithetical duplicate for this progression, I asked myself "why didn't I do that 9 months ago?". Before swapping strategy to 'utilising antithetical duplicate' from 'mid note finger swapping' I tried desperately to finger swap without detriment at high tempo, but my T-T - because of its sensitivity - detects the change, albeit not during slowere tempos when there's time to swap...

 

A link to this notation is here. The Eflat5 is circled - not to be played by default on the RHS. At high tempo this note must be played as the duplicate Dsharp5 on the LHS

Edited May 14, 2012 by kevin toner

[kevin toner]

...ppps: 9. [Almost at the starter for 10 pun]: There's however one other difficult progression in the piece requiring a different kind of move that I've done before on other songs but haven't discussed yet! This entails a finger pad that must slur from one button to another during an actual progression. Not saying where! Students will have to find for themselves. Till now, i.e. the last minute ago, I've been making that particular finger cross-over by 'travelling' it as quickly as possible since within a flurry of notes that probably mask the travelling. However, over the course of a mere 30 seconds, I've managed to get the finger pad to drape across the neighbour two button crossover with ease - phew! Final lesson completed on "MoY". YESSS! ...

 

Am finally there now!

 

,but taking a break to write due to the pain from 'repetitive bar practise strain' (RBPS) in getting there, during 30 minutes work or so.

 

I'll tell you where the [secret] problem 1-finger-pad slur is then!

 

It's at low A onto Lower D (a 5th lower), which is at the minims slurring between "Me-mo & ries of".

 

Unfortunately, for me, only the 3rd finger can do this. If it were my index it'd be plain-sailing! The other choice is to slur from the [raised] F onto Lower D (a 3rd lower) using the middle finger in a Carlin friendly relationship (*1). I find the former an easier slur despite my comfort with doing a Carlin friendly relationship on the latter!

 

• *1 - as discussed/elaborated at post No. 5
  

 

I'd also tried what's best between the Carlin/Non-Carlin approach regarding the index/middle finger relationship on the 'C-&-lower-[raised]-F' 5th in respect of trying adjacently to get the 3rd finger to slur. I was just about to swap/rememorise onto the Carlin friendly option for comfort (i.e. middle below index) until I found that I couldn't slur the adjacent 3rd finger down as easily.

 

So having reverted back to where I first started, what I did to achieve the slur at high tempo consistently, was to apply a door-handle action (*2) - and it then worked! This is when I had to stop, due to RBPS, not because of intensive LHS slurring work, but because of mindlessly hitting the low Aflat minim on the reciprocal side after 50+ goes! I do sometimes practise LHS & RHS independently, but this alters the bellow pressures and should be done just to help embed fingering memories, nothing more!

 

• *2 - as discussed at point No.5 of the original post (#1)
  

 

Esoterically speaking, funny how the lyricist is Andy 'Razaf' when the last problem minim is 'ries of" - kind of checks-out if you ask me!

 

Furthermore, just for the record and kind of related to the once mentioned 'distraction side of practise' as reported in one of my relatively recent posts:-

 

1) since starting the verses part of "MoY" after garnering confidence from Winter Wonderland & Roberton bass/treble clef memorising fairly recently, ergo to complete the entire "MoY" score (and since I'd achieved the chorus part as my first real primer on bass/treble clef piano scores' playing around almost a year ago albeit with much fine-tuning to do) and not without hesitance because of downtown noise/distractions, I've really only had two bad instances of RBPS during the entire "MoY" score. These have been at: 1) the first 2 bars of the verse as scanned here and again as previously discussed; & 2) the above fine-tuning on the above minim change, moments ago.

 

In respect of the latter, and it's all to do with the exercise of memorising/re-memorising, I'd found a similarly gained upper hand strength over the distraction as I'd once experienced many moons ago during my bouts of repeated bar/s practise to begin learning the verse. However, and again, one must sing the lyrics to reveal that strength, not merely focus the brain vis-a-vis distractions/noises (or whatever is throwing one), but to have the last word. Let me explain this other underlying strength:

 

If the lyric was "I'm so beat, I must give-up", then no mental strength is gained (lets call it going into battle without armoury on). However, the lyrics that launch "MoY" are "Why can't I forget like I should?" Yes, it's a typical failed relationship line, but if your trying to combat the distraction to learn the music on EC, it then translates as "Why can't I for[get]... like I should!" through the repeating of bits in order to memorise. When you sing aloud, you've won the battle. When you keep it to yourself, you've lost. I speak with certainty because, when you sing to focus; and then find that you are accidentally breaking down the bars to read veritable 'ON-YOUR-WAYs' you then get the feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment from the apparent [perhaps psychologically] reduced level of distraction...

 

I Thank Mr Razaf for writing "Why can't I for[get]... like I should!" as I'd found the will to succeed with the entire verse, the rest of which is actually much harder to learn!

 

'Will' is however important!

 

Thanks to Razaf once again (mere moments ago) as when I was half way through my 50+ bar repeats and decided to sing along (i.e. "Me - mo - ries - of") I think the gentleman who'd kindly been banging/hammering his gong directly across from me rather than quietly scraping off debris from his whatever was not wanting to here me sing, eventually, the word "y o u ----", but admittedly the minim switch 'Me-mo to ries-of' is definitely the biggest challenge incurs a stepping stone on a very specific fingering technique that reoccurs at the word "Tears", for me with great angst I hasten to say as reported below at post #17 onwards for a correct EC rendition. This bar wouldn't tax a piano though. Makes you wonder! ps Once accomplished though, it's fairly easy, not the more difficult instance at "Tears" though.

 

Yet 'you' aint seen/heard nothing yet, as RAZAF is but mere child's play... in my hopefully growing 1930s repertoire!

 

[there's a few types of gong etc. on the nearby building site that really shouldn't necessitate hammering - the worst was funnily during excavations works when a machine was letting off steam (from it's exhaust) but the cap cover was belting off the exhaust rim ergo to sound like an over avid worker hammering doctors hours i.e. for weeks until naturally spotted by me as it gradually approached that part of the site near my house - they could've put rubber around the flap, but no!... I'll stop there, because I'd need at least a dissertation's worth of word-count to fit everything in - i.e. since the start of the recession 3.75 years ago and counting. Funnily the vacated offices next to me that was curiously scaffolded [noisy trade yes] to be cleaned immediately after a relatively recent post of mines is now (contrary to the appearance that a huge travel centre resides there) 'for let/sale?' as offices for the first time during the recession - typical boards are up - very odd given its concealed abandonment behind a veil of window posters, like a vacated blacked out black van, but it is now the never-ending fit-out works that I'll have to endure as a supplement to the surrounding construction sites. I can discuss these classic distractions as tangible ones; it's the intangible ones that I'm not even going to begin trying to explain - albeit having tried on occasion to equally confused noise officers - perhaps a book/movie will ensue! Fit-outs really can be never-ending as tenants come and go. I feel now I should never've mentioned it and then it might never have been re-occupied. Only-kidding: it's good to see signs of economic recovery, perhaps not to hear them though... OH, enough rambling on, I'll stop there!]

Edited May 29, 2012 by kevin toner

[kevin toner]

sorry if I've went too far on citing the 'distraction ' side of practising.

 

But, if it wasn't for such an practise environment, I'd have not garnered the esoteric side of the songs so quickly!

 

Furthermore, I've long had a name for these compositions. They're called silly songs. Alas, some great had already beat me to that description:

 

"...But I gather'd my philosophy from the moods of a silly song...." in the verse of "It's foolish, but it's fun" 1940.

 

This is in my 1930s book as a typical '30s exemplar notwithstanding that it's a 1940 tune.

 

[incidentally Chatanooga choo choo - currently being discussed on the music discussion forum under swing on EC - is another surprising example of something as upbeat from 1941, but not of the same calibre - I guess the 1930s really did disappear after the likes of "It's foolish-but It's fun" in 1940, perhaps someone can prove me wrong as there'd have been undoubtedly further examples proper. They couldn't all fit into a '30s book. I'm glad the one I'd inherited had however inserted a 1940 exemplar.]

 

Again, apologies!

Edited May 16, 2012 by kevin toner

[kevin toner]

...

 

pps: 8. related to 7, I'd been conversely defaulting on the latter principle and was in a quandary of swapping fingers on a particular button (mid-note) for certain unreachable chorded progressions, i.e. on, all things, the opening intro bar to "MoY" up until 1-2 weeks ago. This is a key progression during a minum, which is repeated in all choruses at "Seems to"; "And they"; and "Ev'rything". What was I saying in my last post about Roberton heavily-stressing the problem EC chord right at the beginning of the piece? Yes, he's not alone, c/o the LWM Co.'s arrangers, in this case for Eubie Blake. Trust me to take on songs with key chords/progressions that are a nightmare for EC. It's been pure coincidence that the arrangers have started their pieces on these. Again, nothing as esoteric as "surely they're composing with an EC", as much as I'd like to believe. When I chose the antithetical duplicate for this progression, I asked myself "why didn't I do that 9 months ago?". Before swapping strategy to 'utilising antithetical duplicate' from 'mid note finger swapping' I tried desperately to finger swap without detriment at high tempo, but my T-T - because of its sensitivity - detects the change, albeit not during slowere tempos when there's time to swap...

 

A link to this notation is here. The Eflat5 is circled - not to be played by default on the RHS. At high tempo this note must be played as the duplicate Dsharp5 on the LHS

 

Yes, not to be confused with the opening bar of the verse on the next stave.

 

Should let players know also to expect considerable mid note finger swapping at the last bar in the verse, but this bar is conveniently slowed by rallentando phrasing, so no worries!

[kevin toner]

 

...funny how the lyricist is Andy 'Razaf' when the last problem minim is 'ries of" - kind of checks-out if you ask me!...

 

This, once again, is not merely a problem minim. It entails the most challenging the encounter of a key slur [for a concertina ] to introduce the encircled D. [PS: also see post #17 for a variation.]

 

This is more significant as a pun than I'd thought, so it goes into my curious notations hall of fame here

 

My encircled note F "Raise F except for a model 16 B-T" (i.e. Wheatstone) refers to the most expensive 1930 EC concertina that there was, which goes down to this very F.

 

Raise-F is another potential pun for the song's lyricist Razaf for us EC players, but it is the other pun (ries of = Raz-af) that would have perhaps caught the attention of vocalists like a later war-time Al Jolson, who's strong Ah's for every vowel was prevalent for his ascension during the war.

 

Funnily when the song (or should I say a 'standard of standards' appeared in 1930, this is when Jolson dissapeared from superstardom. What a manner in which to return, although he missed out on the 1930s. Unfortunately he didn't ever sing Razaf/Blake's "memories of You" or should I say: "Memoraz av You" after he returned into superstardom with his biopics with those amazing Ah pronunciations!

Edited May 21, 2012 by kevin toner

[kevin toner]

 

....Knowing this, I'm glad I made the concious effort recently to re-finger back to my original configuration, i.e. on the cited example bar - a 3 note bass chord, which with a little inward horizontal wrist action (in this particular case) has been no problem ergo in arriving at the stipulated tempo. That said, for the time being, I may stick with the 'fall into place fingering' (i.e. best hand comfort configuration) option for the slower rendition, but certainly not at Moderato.

 

The instance on "MoY" is interesting as there is a variable bar that will not permit substituted fingering, but which incidentally works perfectly naturally with the third finger because it has to act interdependantly with (as I use) the index - phew!. This is the arpeggiated chord at "seems to be" as repeated at "and they all". The problem bar then occurs slightly afterwards (in introducing the bridge at "How I wish" as repeated at "Happy yester"), where the exact same chording requires complete independence from the first executed finger, which again incidentally, but conversely, permits substituted fingering - phew again!....

 

...the textbook ‘middle, 3rd, index’ [aka 3,4,2 – for block chords and progressions: R. Carlin 1977 p17, which Carlin cites will ”...develop good habits”*] consciously in order to strengthen my 2,4,3 hand...

 

I should have mentioned - to avoid confusion - that Carlin uses a different numerical nomenclature for fingers: Thumb = 1 ; Index = 2; Middle = 3; Third = 4; Pinky = 5.

 

Apologies, for not pointing this out initially!

 

So this's how you use Multi-quote, nice!

 

b = symbol for flat

# = symbol for sharp

 

I should mention something fun during my recent assessment of finding a comfortable fingering at the above problem chord, which occurs as the first chord in the intro to "Memories of You" and as repeated in the phrases as cited above. This brings 3 discussions together in a way.

 

The thumb, which Carlin refers to as a No.1 can indeed play a certain button or two if the thumb is fully through its strap as at point No.2 in my original post (#1). This is similar to the notion that a guitarist can bend a thumb round the neck to play on the low E string. Carlin hasn't implied such by numbering the finger.

 

One of these buttons happens to be the Eb that I've opted to avoid using in lieu of its duplicate twin [D#] on the reciprocal LHS end - I've in fact successfully rememorised this chorded phrase and I won't be reverting!

 

Surprisingly, it's as equally comfortable to instead play the natural Eb with the thumb, which likewise (to my final choice) doesn't entail a long-travelling-finger-swap mid note.

 

In fact I would have had much less rememorising to do if I'd opted for thumbing this Eb6 Eb5 (ie on the RHS end)

 

The two reasons I decided not to apply this was:

 

1) unnecessarily unorthodox;

2) because I had an accidental tear on the RHS thumb strap [i.e. caused many moons ago when attempting to punch a tighter strapping hole unsuccessfully] that was making the thumb reach seem to easy. It isn't so easy to do on the LHS strap because it's fully intact. I simply didn't want to get myself into that unnecessary sense of security and position of advocating a slightly torn strap, notwithstanding 1) above.

 

at 2, I was a couple of years ago experimenting with thumb strap tightness. The tear was almost instantly in vain as I quickly warmed to slackness not tightness. They're now set more like my Granddad had them, albeit they're spares from Mr. David Leese, who's also kindly supplied me with a replacement reed and a couple of valves in the past. Yes, I've been very tight with what I've have as it's all in perfect working order, not without occasional maintenance.

 

That said, I will advocate the converse if or when an instance requires it. I don't foresee it! Especially because the thumb-reachable notes are twinned keys (duplicated keys - Eb & D#) giving greater choice ergo a LHS or RHS option for playing the note. "Memories of You" was a near miss in this respect.

 

I suppose this additional point mainly belongs in the Ergonomics form, where such strapping issues and similar things might have been previously discussed?

Edited May 19, 2012 by kevin toner

[kevin toner]

Now Roberton!

 

His scores have few notes, but their general difficulty, with the exception of Westering Home in the key of A, emanates from being written in keys with 1 flat or sharp, i.e. 3No. in G and another in F from the 5 in my repertoire. As we all know by now, such keys are not winners on EC, due to the confinement suffered on having to play intensely to merely the middle 2 rows of the layout.

 

However, here’s another of my curiosities that’s significant enough to go onto my ‘curious notes hall-of-fame':

 

It turns out to be a 3 note RHS chord when combining treble/bass clefs. Here's a link to such chords, accumulating here

 

I’m beginning to think that some of the arrangers that I’ve been incidentally focussing on happened to write their scores using ECs!

 

This particular example is stamped right at the beginning of “Mairi’s Wedding” in the first bar where the chord is hit six times in a kind of “We Will Rock You” type (..> ..>) rhythm, which is supplemented on the LHS with a low D3 (and if you have a B-T EC, if not a piano, then a low G2 on the RHS can also be added).

 

This chord happens to reoccur as the most difficult chord in the poco marcato phrase at hill-ways and later at shieling [incidentally all reachable on a basic treble EC, despite a supplemental G4 note on the LHS]; and also happens to be pivotal in the arrangement of "Air Falalalo" as I’ll mention later.

 

Firstly, I recall when an orchestrator Roy Fox was introducing a medley containing (thirdly) a brief rendition of "Marta", which had seemed to recite or stumble on a difficult but momentary chord combination from Marta when it was played intoxicatingly by the xylophonist during Fox’s verbal introduction of the Medley to the audience. Although when the “Marta” section had arrived, the passage that had these particular chords was skipped. Perhaps it was too much to implement in full orchestral terms and yet possibly too good to ignore...

 

I imagined, from that point on, that an introduction can act as a primer or aide memoire to key and/or challenging passages, notes, and chords.

 

This is what I’m gaining from Roberton’s heavily stressed G chording to introduce “MW”, not as a [grade 1] pianist who would play it blind, but as a concertinist who’d struggle not merely with the instance on “MW”, but surely also with its instance on “AF” too where the chording is not merely pivotal at the last word of each verse (i.e. eye; sing; song) or at the end of each chorus, but where the correct fingering is absolutely critical to the ascending 3rds shortly beforehand en-route to the G chording. See link to "AF" notation here

 

There’s a slight ‘coming of age’ story about all this including the common reassertion in regard to playing such chords in the key of C as follows!

 

It was merely a week ago that I’d realised that this - basically triangular shape G chord of thirds (ie G3,B3,D4 - G3 as the root base button) - should be played in a ‘middle, 3rd, index’ configuration. I’d initially entrusted an opposing ‘pinky,3rd,middle’ that was intermediately working for me on the same chording at "Air Falalalo" as for some reason I’d been trying to avoid the textbook ‘middle, 3rd, index’ [aka 3,4,2 – for block chords and progressions: R. Carlin 1977 p17, which Carlin cites will ”...develop good habits”*] consciously in order to strengthen my 2,4,3 hand through the years as that had been invariably weaker except inversely stronger when reaching for the piccolo end; and I think because I’d been conversely discovering greater possibilities using the latter for certain things, [ps as unfolds] e.g. probably high pitched chording among other things. No, I think I remember now: I remember being less dexterous in reaching for lower notes on my relatively recently acquired 56key T-T - in mid 2003 - having been hitherto accustomed to a treble (1896 New Model). I think the 2,4,3 configuration might have come to my aid at certain times whereas now it probably won’t be an issue. I won’t know for sure until I re-chart the territory that made me think this. I’ve been focussing on very few songs in my repertoire during the last year due to exploring bass clef – I think I’m now over the worst and can now progress back on to the rest of my repertoire.

 

I’m sure 3,4,2 Vs 2,4,3 has undoubtedly been debated here before. I’d personally like to concur with Carlin’s recommendation, especially now when I can see that it is more aligned to the orientation of the keyboard axis despite appearing more scrunched than the latter does. It is however, as I implied a moment ago, an advantage that disappears the further up that the middle finger has to travel until it struggles to bend, i.e. at the higher notes.

 

There’s obviously a crossover point when one beats the other and I suppose this differs from player to player.

 

On “AF”, I’d tried to do the latter too low [at G3 as root]. The strain prompted me to employ the aforementioned pinky configuration, i.e. swap the index with the pinky (5,4,3), before opting for Carlin’s 3,4,2. In fact, I’d contend that 5,4,3 is equally if not more comfortable excepting 1) the ascended 3rds in “AF” and 2) when phrased in “MW” during the poco marcato bar.

 

I’d originally dropped the G3 in this poco marcato phrase over the last few years until recently... - laziness!

 

However, I’d initially struggled in adding this G3 based on the ‘pinky,3rd,middle’ (5,4,3) configuration, which is the next most comfortable triangular configuration of scrunching the 3 fingers together that low down. Interestingly on the LHS [at the third chord along in the phrase – a C4 rooted triad block chord] I appear to be having no such trouble whatsoever in keeping with the non-Carlin 2,4,3 [which - I say once again - was a triad configuration that I’d appeared to be formerly advocating perhaps inter alia a former lack of dexterity] even although it is merely half a button space lower down than the C4 example on the LHS higher than the comparably uncomfortable G3-rooted equivalent on the RHS.

 

[ps: This tells me what my make-or-break point is in my ability to play non-Carlin [figure of speech] 2,4,3 configurations as low as possible, i.e. comfortably in phrases. This point for me is at the root G3 triad on the RHS, which I repeat launches Roberton's "MW". Nothing is esoteric in all this in that the composer has simply fronted a score in the key of G with a very plain block chord in G, which albeit happens to need the EC players' utmost attention. Again, it's not something that would tax a pianist.]

 

I went to the tina there momentarily to try nevertheless substituting this C4 block chord on the LHS with a (Carlin friendly) 2,4,3 and there was equally no trouble excepting a slight unfamiliarity. However, I know I won’t be adopting the Carlin configuration here because, on further inspection, when the same chord is played in the chorus at Heel for; and at All for, the phrasing (sequence) will only permit the non-Carlin method at speed. I have a secret though at this point – I let the index finger pad play both C and the above G simultaneously for an even smoother transition. If I make any change, I might adopt this finger pad trick during the poco marcato phrase instance albeit not strictly necessary, but simply to induce the memory that it’s required elsewhere.

 

Which brings me full-circle!

 

This would be the very same reasoning behind why I would want to introduce “MW” with the Carlin configuration (with the G3 triad chord) rather than the equally comforting pinky configuration, i.e. to simply familiarise with the configuration because of the demand for it challenge of it when sandwiched within at the poco marcato phrase. A veritable warm-up as implied earlier!

 

Before anyone asks, I just tried there to do the two buttons’ finger pad trick on the G3 chord, but couldn’t bend the 3rd finger’s first joint in the same manner as the index finger. Applying the index that low down also means too much travelling for the index up to the subsequent chord. Therefore, I believe I now have the piece perfected. Simply now a matter of familiarising on that final single fingering change, i.e. to play the RHS G3 triad chord throughout “MW” & “AF” using the Carlin method.

 

Learning the hard way one might say!

 

However, everyone’s different, or as Ransom has pointed out above, not when 3rd fingers are involved.

 

Feel free to add, agree or disagree!

 

• [Carlin's recommendation - as asterisked above - also appears to be very helpful for easing certain (albeit a minority of) progressions in traditional fiddle compositions. I think, I perhaps made an early mistake by over subscribing to Carlin's recommendations at the expense of equally necessary 'index-middle' progressions, although I'm happy I've strengthened in a 3-finger respect. I'm still a little annoyed by having realised recently that 'index-middle' playing appears to be far more prevalent for the majority of progressions. However, it's great when you can easily command 3-finger progressions when necessary. I will however have more catching up to do as a result in choosing what's best for progressions in tradition fiddle music, whether it's: 1) index-middle playing; or 2) three finger playing, as each definitely does have its place, i.e. on a bar-to-bar (not tune-by-tune) basis.]
  

 

despite this progress, I've assessed from the five original Hugh S Roberton piano/voice scores the following:

 

1) that merely "Mingulay Boat Song" (in F) 1938 is perfect for a T-T;

 

2) "Air Falalalo" (in G) 1938 (where a 1/4 of bars are affected) would conversely be perfectly suited for a standard B-T; &

 

3) "Come Along" (in G) 1937 (where a 1/3 of bars are affected) would be ditto;

 

4) "Mairi's Wedding " (in G) 1937 also really deserves a B-T to beef up the occasionally lonesome G semi-breve octaves, although not disastrous, but also to improve/launch the wonderful progression at "All for sake o' Mai-ri" with a Baritone A note (i.e. an A2 rather than an A3). This could be one suitable for transposing slightly higher, which won't entail sending the tenor voice into soprano territory as would would certainly occur on transposing any of the others into the T-T's range;

 

5) "Westering Home" (in A) 1939 actually necessitates a bass (rather than a baritone) to celebrate the gradual 4 octave progression through "Light in the eye and it's goodbye to care", which is phrased over a 1/4 of the chorus. A contra-bass A & B is also occasionally necessary in my opinion... A baritone would be as good for this as a tenor-treble is for "AF" - pointless really unless transposed slightly higher up perhaps.

 

Fortunately, because my T-T is more compatible with the more popular key signatures and because there's generally less sparsity (and therefore less of a prescribed nature) to the majority of my repertoire, I won't be needing a B-T for quite a while, a decade perhaps.

 

ps: Songs 2 to 4 would be easy enough to play on B-T due to their sparsity of notes, where all I'd need to do is simply engage a choice of idle fingers to play the odd additional bassy note or drone. Song 5 would however be a total different ball game, but worthwhile, to recreate Roberton's intended score in full, provided there's a concertina that'd range between A1 to E5.

Edited May 19, 2012 by kevin toner

[kevin toner]

 

 

...Here’s a list of recent findings as I develop.

 

1. Listening &/or recalling Granddad playing and discussing;

2. Thumbs fully through straps

3. Hand straps on (starting loose and working towards tighter as dexterity improves – I’ve still got a few notches before I reach the tightness Granddad was at – the mark on the straps are still there and I’m glad I decided to get them back on the concertina): the obvious advantage is increased control but greater discovery/cognisance of the bellows...;

4. Lower shoulders at difficult passages to release stiffness and promote the following:

5. use/experiment with hand positioning before scrunching up shoulders and using unnecessary upper arm work. Vertical & horizontal rotation of the wrist, and door handle action turning from forearm too: can all unlock difficulties of reach. As mentioned above, getting the right leverage can sometimes beat comfortable hand configurations e.g. in my case, if too much demand put on the aforementioned interdependency weakness of the 3rd finger at high tempo arpeggiated chordings;

6. Revisit music score and discover or search for the intention of the writers if it’s there and worthwhile. The value of notes can be over/under-estimated during familiarisation/s especially if a flurry of notes are involved as in piano scores...

 

 

ps: 7. perhaps remember to practice what you preach, i.e. if you've ever been an advocate of utilising your choice of duplicated-button (available to EC players in all Eflats/Dsharps; Aflats/Gsharps). My underlying primary policy, since I started out, which I'm sure'll be pretty universal among most players/learners: is to mentally tag your duplicate depending on whether your playing in flats or sharps mode, i.e. if flattening an E then choosing the duplicate next to the E; or if sharpening a D then choosing opting for its twin next to the D. Same applying to the Aflats/Gsharps. What I'd be preaching though for bass/treble clef piano score stuff is to refrain from the principle in lieu of chosing what's best for fingering comfort.

 

pps: 8. related to 7, I'd been conversely defaulting on the latter principle and was in a quandary of swapping fingers on a particular button (mid-note) for certain unreachable chorded progressions, i.e. on, all things, the opening intro bar to "MoY" up until 1-2 weeks ago. This is a key progression during a minum, which is repeated in all choruses at "Seems to"; "And they"; and "Ev'rything". What was I saying in my last post about Roberton heavily-stressing the problem EC chord right at the beginning of the piece? Yes, he's not alone, c/o the LWM Co.'s arrangers, in this case for Eubie Blake. Trust me to take on songs with key chords/progressions that are a nightmare for EC. It's been pure coincidence that the arrangers have started their pieces on these. Again, nothing as esoteric as "surely they're composing with an EC", as much as I'd like to believe. When I chose the antithetical duplicate for this progression, I asked myself "why didn't I do that 9 months ago?". Before swapping strategy to 'utilising antithetical duplicate' from 'mid note finger swapping' I tried desperately to finger swap without detriment at high tempo, but my T-T - because of its sensitivity - detects the change, albeit not during slowere tempos when there's time to swap.

 

ppps: 9. [Almost at the starter for 10 pun]: There's however one other difficult progression in the piece requiring a different kind of move that I've done before on other songs but haven't discussed yet! This entails a finger pad that must slur from one button to another during an actual progression. Not saying where! Students will have to find for themselves. Till now, i.e. the last minute ago, I've been making that particular finger cross-over by 'travelling' it as quickly as possible since within a flurry of notes that probably mask the travelling. However, over the course of a mere 30 seconds, I've managed to get the finger pad to drape across the neighbour two button crossover with ease - phew! Final lesson completed on "MoY". YESSS!

 

pppps: 10. related to 9, write on this forum discussion with your thoughts and you might well discover [virtually] another revelation before arrived at in the real world.

 

ps further to post #9 as follows and extracted in [square brackets] :

 

["...,but taking a break to write due to the pain from 'repetitive bar practise strain' (RBPS) in getting there, during 30 minutes work or so.

 

I'll tell you where the [secret] problem 1-finger-pad slur is then!

 

It's at low A onto Lower D (a 5th lower), which is at the minims slurring between "Me-mo & ries of".

 

Unfortunately, for me, only the 3rd finger can do this. If it were my index it'd be plain-sailing! The other choice is to slur from the [raised] F onto Lower D (a 3rd lower) using the middle finger in a Carlin friendly relationship (*1). I find the former an easier slur despite my comfort with doing a Carlin friendly relationship on the latter! *1 - as discussed/elaborated at post No. 5

 

I'd also tried what's best between the Carlin/Non-Carlin approach regarding the index/middle finger relationship on the 'C-&-lower-[raised]-F' 5th in respect of trying adjacently to get the 3rd finger to slur. I was just about to swap/rememorise onto the Carlin friendly option for comfort (i.e. middle below index) until I found that I couldn't slur the adjacent 3rd finger down as easily.

 

So having reverted back to where I first started, what I did to achieve the slur at high tempo consistently, was to apply a door-handle action (*2) - and it then worked! This is when I had to stop, due to RBPS, not because of intensive LHS slurring work, but because of mindlessly hitting the low Aflat minim on the reciprocal side after 50+ goes! I do sometimes practise LHS & RHS independently, but this alters the bellow pressures and should be done just to help embed fingering memories, nothing more! *2 - as discussed at point No.5 of the original post (#1)..."]

 

At point No.9: as bolded, I should say 'NOT with ease' actually. Tonight I tried to do this again with great difficulty! I did however find the solution required eventually. This is to depress the preceding low A minim by resting the third finger nail on it and propping the finger pad onto the lower D minim ready to simply lever it round off the A onto the D to pull off a proper slur. Nonetheless, the majority of the above points from 1-10 still apply, I still find!

 

For a moment, I almost thought he'd really stumped us at that D minim (the aforemention problem "ries-of" minim), and that I'd have to revert back to the 'as quickly a travel as possible' method between the A and D. Nice to prove oneself that there was something more significant behind that minim than a mere pun or 2 surrounding it!

 

Great elation is felt when playing as written as opposed to winging it, so it was worth the perseverance.

 

Eubie Blake is in my good books again!

Edited May 19, 2012 by kevin toner

[kevin toner]

 

....Knowing this, I'm glad I made the concious effort recently to re-finger back to my original configuration, i.e. on the cited example bar - a 3 note bass chord, which with a little inward horizontal wrist action (in this particular case) has been no problem ergo in arriving at the stipulated tempo. That said, for the time being, I may stick with the 'fall into place fingering' (i.e. best hand comfort configuration) option for the slower rendition, but certainly not at Moderato.

 

The instance on "MoY" is interesting as there is a variable bar that will not permit substituted fingering, but which incidentally works perfectly naturally with the third finger because it has to act interdependantly with (as I use) the index - phew!. This is the arpeggiated chord at "seems to be" as repeated at "and they all". The problem bar then occurs slightly afterwards (in introducing the bridge at "How I wish" as repeated at "Happy yester"), where the exact same chording requires complete independence from the first executed finger, which again incidentally, but conversely, permits substituted fingering - phew again!....

 

...the textbook ‘middle, 3rd, index’ [aka 3,4,2 – for block chords and progressions: R. Carlin 1977 p17, which Carlin cites will ”...develop good habits”*] consciously in order to strengthen my 2,4,3 hand...

 

I should have mentioned - to avoid confusion - that Carlin uses a different numerical nomenclature for fingers: Thumb = 1 ; Index = 2; Middle = 3; Third = 4; Pinky = 5.

 

Apologies, for not pointing this out initially!

 

So this's how you use Multi-quote, nice!

 

b = symbol for flat

# = symbol for sharp

 

I should mention something fun during my recent assessment of finding a comfortable fingering at the above problem chord, which occurs as the first chord in the intro to "Memories of You" and as repeated in the phrases as cited above. This brings 3 discussions together in a way.

 

The thumb, which Carlin refers to as a No.1 can indeed play a certain button or two if the thumb is fully through its strap as at point No.2 in my original post (#1). This is similar to the notion that a guitarist can bend a thumb round the neck to play on the low E string. Carlin hasn't implied such by numbering the finger.

 

One of these buttons happens to be the Eb that I've opted to avoid using in lieu of its duplicate twin [D#] on the reciprocal LHS end - I've in fact successfully rememorised this chorded phrase and I won't be reverting!

 

Surprisingly, it's as equally comfortable to instead play the natural Eb with the thumb, which likewise (to my final choice) doesn't entail a long-travelling-finger-swap mid note.

 

In fact I would have had much less rememorising to do if I'd opted for thumbing this Eb6 Eb5 (ie on the RHS end)

 

The two reasons I decided not to apply this was:

 

1) unnecessarily unorthodox;

2) because I had an accidental tear on the RHS thumb strap [i.e. caused many moons ago when attempting to punch a tighter strapping hole unsuccessfully] that was making the thumb reach seem to easy. It isn't so easy to do on the LHS strap because it's fully intact. I simply didn't want to get myself into that unnecessary sense of security and position of advocating a slightly torn strap, notwithstanding 1) above.

 

at 2, I was a couple of years ago experimenting with thumb strap tightness. The tear was almost instantly in vain as I quickly warmed to slackness not tightness. They're now set more like my Granddad had them, albeit they're spares from Mr. David Leese, who's also kindly supplied me with a replacement reed and a couple of valves in the past. Yes, I've been very tight with what I've have as it's all in perfect working order, not without occasional maintenance.

 

That said, I will advocate the converse if or when an instance requires it. I don't foresee it! Especially because the thumb-reachable notes are twinned keys (duplicated keys - Eb & D#) giving greater choice ergo a LHS or RHS option for playing the note. "Memories of You" was a near miss in this respect.

 

I suppose this additional point mainly belongs in the Ergonomics form, where such strapping issues and similar things might have been previously discussed?

 

More news to report!

 

Back off the playing with thumbs fun/remarks!

 

Regarding my 13 May post as quoted above in bold, having re-assessed applied the above [re-assessed] arpeggiated chord fingering/s, I thought I'd noticed a decrease in my third finger's interdependent strength after my mitigation of its use on the variant bars.

 

This proves that third finger strengthening and memorisation are more critical than I'd thought. However, another revelation to add upon my thumbs-through advocacy that offers a remedy for this weakness follows!

 

I'd add "thumbs through slack but not too slack and of course not tight either, let alone too tight, but tight enough to instantaneously enable leverage strength and flexibility.

 

I've arrived at this [addendum] as I'd noticed an improvement by tightening up the thumb straps. The location of the tear was making the strap too slack for the necessary leverage. So back on track regarding my earlier fingering assessments - phew!

 

[i'm not desperate for replacement straps yet, but there's a whole new subject I've discovered here that could be discussed on the 'Eronomics' forum another day perhaps. I'll investigate first though to see if my ideas have been discussed previously.]

 

However, there's been another discovery as I school myself through what I've preached (1-10) above, i.e. to follow in a moment, as I tackle and get "MoY" nearer to recording.

Edited May 21, 2012 by kevin toner

[kevin toner]

 

 

...Here’s a list of recent findings as I develop.

 

1. Listening &/or recalling Granddad playing and discussing;

2. Thumbs fully through straps

3. Hand straps on (starting loose and working towards tighter as dexterity improves – I’ve still got a few notches before I reach the tightness Granddad was at – the mark on the straps are still there and I’m glad I decided to get them back on the concertina): the obvious advantage is increased control but greater discovery/cognisance of the bellows...;

4. Lower shoulders at difficult passages to release stiffness and promote the following:

5. use/experiment with hand positioning before scrunching up shoulders and using unnecessary upper arm work. Vertical & horizontal rotation of the wrist, and door handle action turning from forearm too: can all unlock difficulties of reach. As mentioned above, getting the right leverage can sometimes beat comfortable hand configurations e.g. in my case, if too much demand put on the aforementioned interdependency weakness of the 3rd finger at high tempo arpeggiated chordings;

6. Revisit music score and discover or search for the intention of the writers if it’s there and worthwhile. The value of notes can be over/under-estimated during familiarisation/s especially if a flurry of notes are involved as in piano scores...

 

 

ps: 7. perhaps remember to practice what you preach, i.e. if you've ever been an advocate of utilising your choice of duplicated-button (available to EC players in all Eflats/Dsharps; Aflats/Gsharps). My underlying primary policy, since I started out, which I'm sure'll be pretty universal among most players/learners: is to mentally tag your duplicate depending on whether your playing in flats or sharps mode, i.e. if flattening an E then choosing the duplicate next to the E; or if sharpening a D then choosing opting for its twin next to the D. Same applying to the Aflats/Gsharps. What I'd be preaching though for bass/treble clef piano score stuff is to refrain from the principle in lieu of chosing what's best for fingering comfort.

 

pps: 8. related to 7, I'd been conversely defaulting on the latter principle and was in a quandary of swapping fingers on a particular button (mid-note) for certain unreachable chorded progressions, i.e. on, all things, the opening intro bar to "MoY" up until 1-2 weeks ago. This is a key progression during a minum, which is repeated in all choruses at "Seems to"; "And they"; and "Ev'rything". What was I saying in my last post about Roberton heavily-stressing the problem EC chord right at the beginning of the piece? Yes, he's not alone, c/o the LWM Co.'s arrangers, in this case for Eubie Blake. Trust me to take on songs with key chords/progressions that are a nightmare for EC. It's been pure coincidence that the arrangers have started their pieces on these. Again, nothing as esoteric as "surely they're composing with an EC", as much as I'd like to believe. When I chose the antithetical duplicate for this progression, I asked myself "why didn't I do that 9 months ago?". Before swapping strategy to 'utilising antithetical duplicate' from 'mid note finger swapping' I tried desperately to finger swap without detriment at high tempo, but my T-T - because of its sensitivity - detects the change, albeit not during slowere tempos when there's time to swap.

 

ppps: 9. [Almost at the starter for 10 pun]: There's however one other difficult progression in the piece requiring a different kind of move that I've done before on other songs but haven't discussed yet! This entails a finger pad that must slur from one button to another during an actual progression. Not saying where! Students will have to find for themselves. Till now, i.e. the last minute ago, I've been making that particular finger cross-over by 'travelling' it as quickly as possible since within a flurry of notes that probably mask the travelling. However, over the course of a mere 30 seconds, I've managed to get the finger pad to drape across the neighbour two button crossover with ease - phew! Final lesson completed on "MoY". YESSS!

 

pppps: 10. related to 9, write on this forum discussion with your thoughts and you might well discover [virtually] another revelation before arrived at in the real world.

 

ps further to post #9 as follows and extracted in [square brackets] :

 

["...,but taking a break to write due to the pain from 'repetitive bar practise strain' (RBPS) in getting there, during 30 minutes work or so.

 

I'll tell you where the [secret] problem 1-finger-pad slur is then!

 

It's at low A onto Lower D (a 5th lower), which is at the minims slurring between "Me-mo & ries of".

 

Unfortunately, for me, only the 3rd finger can do this. If it were my index it'd be plain-sailing! The other choice is to slur from the [raised] F onto Lower D (a 3rd lower) using the middle finger in a Carlin friendly relationship (*1). I find the former an easier slur despite my comfort with doing a Carlin friendly relationship on the latter! *1 - as discussed/elaborated at post No. 5

 

I'd also tried what's best between the Carlin/Non-Carlin approach regarding the index/middle finger relationship on the 'C-&-lower-[raised]-F' 5th in respect of trying adjacently to get the 3rd finger to slur. I was just about to swap/rememorise onto the Carlin friendly option for comfort (i.e. middle below index) until I found that I couldn't slur the adjacent 3rd finger down as easily.

 

So having reverted back to where I first started, what I did to achieve the slur at high tempo consistently, was to apply a door-handle action (*2) - and it then worked! This is when I had to stop, due to RBPS, not because of intensive LHS slurring work, but because of mindlessly hitting the low Aflat minim on the reciprocal side after 50+ goes! I do sometimes practise LHS & RHS independently, but this alters the bellow pressures and should be done just to help embed fingering memories, nothing more! *2 - as discussed at point No.5 of the original post (#1)..."]

 

At point No.9: as bolded, I should say 'NOT with ease' actually. Tonight I tried to do this again with great difficulty! I did however find the solution required eventually. This is to depress the preceding low A minim by resting the third finger nail on it and propping the finger pad onto the lower D minim ready to simply lever it round off the A onto the D to pull off a proper slur. Nonetheless, the majority of the above points from 1-10 still apply, I still find!

 

For a moment, I almost thought he'd really stumped us at that D minim (the aforemention problem "ries-of" minim), and that I'd have to revert back to the 'as quickly a travel as possible' method between the A and D. Nice to prove oneself that there was something more significant behind that minim than a mere pun or 2 surrounding it!

 

Great elation is felt when playing as written as opposed to winging it, so it was worth the perseverance.

 

Eubie Blake is in my good books again!

 

Further to the above quoted update, please note that Blake in fact gives the EC player another instance of this kind of slurring technique. Yes, I was travelling here rather than slurring previously, who can blame me, as I cross these veritable stepping stones to the hardest slurred notes in the song!

 

This is basically the most luscious part of the [already very luscious] chorus bridge - so it happens x4 if you sing both verses (rare). Most post-war jazz renditions ignore the verse, but multiply the No. of times the chorus is played, sometimes on a per soloist basis across all the instrumentalists, as so provoking is the piece.

 

Firstly, before revealing the instance (deserving of a curious notes entry as here) Blake demands [of EC] a slight sharing of the index finger pad on the preceding rhyming bar at Years - nothing to worry.

 

I've circled this 3 button move above. It's a sequenced double-slur that occurs within the extended semi-breve "Tears". The index finger has to move thus [G4,Db4,C4].

 

G4 to Db4 (slur) is achieved by doing the same trick as previously mentioned in my recent post at #15, i.e. by using the face of the nail then pivoting onto the next button, however this is a [much more difficult (non-5th)] diagonal instance as you'll see from your layouts, but not to worry as this half of the bridge has been slowed by Blake.

 

Not out the woods yet - it's a 3 button slur!

 

Db4 to C4(middle C) is then achieved by then rotating the index exactly horizontally onto its side.

 

So that happens to be the final difficulty, not without tears______!

 

For those who'd prefer to travel between these 3 buttons, be my guest, as when I was doing this I hadn't noticed the travelling due to the surrounding chords and because of the agile independence of the index's ability to [as my Granddad called it] cover-up quickly.

 

All this recent schooling'll put me back merely probably a week. I never thought in my wildest dreams that I'd be articulating this number as stipulated within the tempos.

 

Eubie Blake - did your transcriber have an EC?

[kevin toner]

 

...Further to the above quoted update, please note that Blake in fact gives the EC player another instance of this kind of slurring technique. Yes, I was travelling here rather than slurring previously, who can blame me, as I cross these veritable stepping stones to the hardest slurred notes in the song!

 

This is basically the most luscious part of the [already very luscious] chorus bridge - so it happens x4 if you sing both verses (rare). Most post-war jazz renditions ignore the verse, but multiply the No. of times the chorus is played, sometimes on a per soloist basis across all the instrumentalists, as so provoking is the piece.

 

Firstly, before revealing the instance (deserving of a curious notes entry as here) Blake demands [of EC] a slight sharing of the index finger pad on the preceding rhyming bar at Years - nothing to worry.

 

I've circled this 3 button move above. It's a sequenced double-slur that occurs within the extended semi-breve "Tears". The index finger has to move thus [G4,Db4,C4].

 

G4 to Db4 (slur) is achieved by doing the same trick as previously mentioned in my recent post at #15, i.e. by using the face of the nail then pivoting onto the next button, however this is a [much more difficult (non-5th)] diagonal instance as you'll see from your layouts, but not to worry as this half of the bridge has been slowed by Blake.

 

Not out the woods yet - it's a 3 button slur!

 

Db4 to C4(middle C) is then achieved by then rotating the index exactly horizontally onto its side.

 

So that happens to be the final difficulty, not without tears______!

 

For those who'd prefer to travel between these 3 buttons, be my guest, as when I was doing this I hadn't noticed the travelling due to the surrounding chords and because of the agile independence of the index's ability to [as my Granddad called it] cover-up quickly.

 

All this recent schooling'll put me back merely probably a week. I never thought in my wildest dreams that I'd be articulating this number as stipulated within the tempos.

 

Eubie Blake - did your transcriber have an EC?

 

A couple of more supporting observations having practised this sequential slur today eagerly! Yes, it's the way to go, the right choice, but expect 'Tears' unless two things:

 

1), if you wish this instance to be as easy as the single [A to D] example at the 'ries-of' minim, then expect your index finger's first joint-to-tip length to be a couple more mm greater than the typical inch like mine's; AND/OR

 

2) faithfully accent the first two minims of the index finger's passage.

 

The latter removes any noticeable silence from having too short an index finger, especially if applied with extra gusto.

 

It's not a problem that the last/next note isn't accented by the transcriber since rotating the index onto its side on to the middle C is an effortless operation.

 

[i therefore ask Blake again: Was his transcriber an EC player(?) I think there might be other examples out there too as suspected during my earlier treble clef endeavours]

 

I do wish I'd had both advantages (1 & 2) under my belt, but will have to settle for simply the latter, like most players I suspect.

 

I expect the difficulty to ease with practise! Again, thanks to Blake's transcriber for slowing the phrasing down here!

 

I believe that finger length develops through learning piano during 'growing-up', if not an old-wife's-tail.

Edited May 22, 2012 by kevin toner