Rock'n Roll

[Dirge]

Has anyone managed to produce convincing pop music, and particularly are they brave enough to put some examples up for all of us to enjoy/learn from?

 

I fiddle about with this when mucking about (I see 'mucking about' as legitimate practice when you aren't in the mood for the serious stuff..) and have yet to come up with anything convincing. 'Live and let Die' shows promise and might work one day, with effort; I fiddle about with Kinks/ Wreckless Eric/Hendrix tunes, but it always lacks that 'electric' feel (as in live not necessarily the guitar), but I don't like to admit failure here; is anyone ahead of me and willing to offer some tips? I'm sure it can be done.

[Stephen Chambers]

Has anyone managed to produce convincing pop music ...

In his busking days, Paul Davis used to make a great job of Stairway to Heaven after numerous requests from kids on the street - he always tried to pick tunes that were right for his "audience" at any given time (being well aware that not everybody is into "the jigs and the reels" that he mostly played ) so, for example, if he saw an "old-colonel" type he might go into Colonel Bogey (with all the parts) and watch them fall into step with it, or it might be Mozart's Rondo a la Turca (learned from one of my 78s of Wanda Landowska on the harpsichord), or maybe As Time Goes By, all played on the 38-key high-pitch Bb/F Jeffries Anglo (his "street box") that Roger Digby has now.

[Mikefule]

The Anglo lends itself reasonably well to bubblegum doowop - stuff like "Teenager in Love".

[Leo]

Hi Dirge

 

Have you tried Metallica or Led Zeppelin or possibly U2?

 

http://www.jr.com/product/music/pm/_1039439/

 

http://www.jr.com/product/music/pm/_962813/

 

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7759929

 

The band is called The Boys Of County Nashville, and the musician is John Mock playing a Morse Anglo and a melodeon.

 

I used to have the music but my hard drive crashed and I lost it, and never replaced it. I haven't tried it myself, but I'll stick to some Broadway show tunes and movie music.

 

Thanks

Leo

[david_boveri]

i find pop and rock music to be very elusive... you have to chose the right song to get it to sound right. sure you can come up with something, but it just doesn't always work.

 

i've tried viva la vida by cold play. it's ok, but i just havent seemed to get that right yet. just today i was trying to get hey delilah (

), and it was driving me crazy....

 

my best attempt so far is at get back (

) by the beatles. i am not quite so sure i am brave enough to try posting it!

 

i actually find something like that easier than hey delilah, because it is just so hard to replicate the sound of an ACOUSTIC pop guitar. i havent found a way to rhythmically find a substitute yet, but i've been trying different things. surely it will require taking a whole different approach to sound production on the anglo. the closest i have gotten is phillip-glass-like minimalistic sounds. i'm trying to work backwards from that into making a rhythmic, tonally relevant but un-obtrusive sound to take the place of an acoustic or rhythm guitar. so far no luck...

[LDT]

I've tried playing some Beatles tunes before....its even turned into a party game at family gatherings 'guess what tune I've mangled'.

[LangoLee]

Since two of the defining characteristics of rock music are electric amplification (usually of guitars) and beats played on a full-size drum kit, it would be impossible to replicate such a sound on a solo concertina - only a skeleton of the tune. With the addition of drums and maybe an electric bass, it could be slotted into crossover genres such as folk-rock (e.g. John Kirkpatrick in Morris On, or any of the numerous Irish acts), or one of those pseudo-gypsy bands perhaps. Otherwise, free reed instruments are, one imagines, still regarded - if they are ever regarded at all - as tragically unfashionable by most Western rock aficionados (connotations of an elderly street musician playing a polka on a battered old accordion, or something).

[david_boveri]

Since two of the defining characteristics of rock music are electric amplification (usually of guitars) and beats played on a full-size drum kit, it would be impossible to replicate such a sound on a solo concertina - only a skeleton of the tune. With the addition of drums and maybe an electric bass, it could be slotted into crossover genres such as folk-rock (e.g. John Kirkpatrick in Morris On, or any of the numerous Irish acts), or one of those pseudo-gypsy bands perhaps. Otherwise, free reed instruments are, one imagines, still regarded - if they are ever regarded at all - as tragically unfashionable by most Western rock aficionados (connotations of an elderly street musician playing a polka on a battered old accordion, or something).

 

although i do agree with you that rock is characterized by electric amplification and drum kits, there are plenty of exceptions, and there is some wiggle room as well. for example... an electric guitar sounds different than an electric guitar with distortion (which is the norm nowadays), yet many popular songs in the rock-derivative genres use acoustic guitar and other instruments.

 

check out that link for "hey delilah" and you'll see... there is no drum kit in the entire song. although i would not classify this as rock and roll, dirge only used that nomenclature in the title of this thread, and henceforth referred to pop in the original post, so i think it is fair to muddy the distinction. even though there is no drum kit in or bass guitar in the song, i still would consider it rock. the guitar is not even electric... it is clearly acoustic, and the orchestral strings (i can't tell which instruments) accompanying singing are not amplified either. the song topped the hot 100 in 2007, which is the same chart that pioneers of rock like ray charles, elvis, chubby checker, the beatles, etc all topped ~50 years ago.

 

so, that being said, that does not make our job as concertina players easier. i agree that the free reed sound does not sound palatable to the rock-expecting ear, but in mexico pop/rock has accordion almost by default, so clearly it is not impossible. to fit into the tonal palette of american pop, it would surely take some innovative playing to avoid being classified as fusion. i think it would be possible to use the concertina in a rock/pop sense, and not in a folk sense within rock music.

 

of course to make a convincing do of the concertina in pop you would have to integrate INTO a rock sound, by having a drum kit and a bass, and even a rhythm guitar or lead. with the way pop music sounds now, you might even be able to get a way with some synthesized beats and counter melodies. however, if we were to consider that rock music cannot be played on the concertina because it cannot do it as a solo instrument, we must also insist that the electric guitar cannot be played in rock music because it cannot do it either as a solo instrument.... just as rock musicians must start by playing themselves along with recordings, young aspiring rock and roll concertinists would have to make solo arrangements to get their chops up to speed.

Edited October 6, 2009 by david_boveri

[J Werner]

I think the concertina can have a fabulous role in rock/pop music, as long as you accept what it is and let the concertina be itself. Obviously, it'll never have the attack or percussive rhythm of a guitar, but that's okay! I think it would sound great to adapt rock parts normally played on the Hammond organ over to concertina. I'm thinking in particular of the Rolling Stones, Beast of Burden. That song has a very prominent organ part that could sound really striking on the concertina (maybe an acoustic version of Beast of Burden, with a concertina, acoustic guitar, snare drum with brushes, etc). The concertina can be "cool" daddy-o!

 

Edit: just tried to look up Beast of Burden audio on youtube, and I guess the version I have with organ isn't the normal recording, sorry...

 

Also, there are a lot of Bob Dylan songs that feature organ, which could be concertinized pretty effectively.

Edited October 6, 2009 by J Werner

[david_boveri]

I think the concertina can have a fabulous role in rock/pop music, as long as you accept what it is and let the concertina be itself. Obviously, it'll never have the attack or percussive rhythm of a guitar, but that's okay! I think it would sound great to adapt rock parts normally played on the Hammond organ over to concertina. I'm thinking in particular of the Rolling Stones, Beast of Burden. That song has a very prominent organ part that could sound really striking on the concertina (maybe an acoustic version of Beast of Burden, with a concertina, acoustic guitar, snare drum with brushes, etc). The concertina can be "cool" daddy-o!

 

Edit: just tried to look up Beast of Burden audio on youtube, and I guess the version I have with organ isn't the normal recording, sorry...

 

Also, there are a lot of Bob Dylan songs that feature organ, which could be concertinized pretty effectively.

 

although i've tried to replicate organ parts (and harmonica parts of bob dylan), i've never tried to JUST do that. that's a good idea... right now i'm thinking of going through and learning the organ part to house of the rising sun by the animals.

[Mikefule]

Listen to any album by Hayseed Dixie to hear classics of heavy rock/heavy metal played on "folk" instruments. Hayseed Dixie cover material from AC/DC, Motörhead and the like, in a bluegrass style, with fiddle, banjo, etc. They are great fun.

 

The trick is not to try to reproduce the original sound on the "wrong instruments", but to play the tunes in a style that fits the instruments you have.

 

Free reeds have a respectable history in blues and rock, withthe harmonica.

[Robert Booth]

Yes, it is a little difficult to make the sound fit the genre but there are some things that come out sounding very good. I've been working up a few of Carlos Santanas' songs, some of the slower, soulful tunes. The long guitar cries of "Samba Pa Ti "or "Europa" come out well, close in feel to Santanas' intent, especially when augumented by a high lofty ceiling to add some body to the sound. Try 'em-you'll like 'em.

RB

[Dirge]

Yes, it is a little difficult to make the sound fit the genre but there are some things that come out sounding very good. I've been working up a few of Carlos Santanas' songs, some of the slower, soulful tunes. The long guitar cries of "Samba Pa Ti "or "Europa" come out well, close in feel to Santanas' intent, especially when augumented by a high lofty ceiling to add some body to the sound. Try 'em-you'll like 'em.

RB

 

 

OK I'll give it a go. Thank you.

 

I wasn't really after how to play r&r with a six piece band, sorry those of you that suggested that but it's a bit of a pushover playing the keyboard part and leaving the rock n roll to the ensemble, isn't it? I was more interested in solo, perhaps with an optional accoustic guitar to provide the percussion.

 

Beatles songs have clever chords and lyrical tunes so I know they often work, but again, they're a bit outside the brief.

 

I was after the sort of basic rock that started in the fifties and is always there, occasionally being 'rediscovered' (punk, eg, and what do they call the Kaiser Chief's style?) basic raw driving predominantly three chord trick style stuff. Every time I try it I feel the result belongs more in the folk club.

 

Can an English play glissandos a la Jerry Lee Lewis, incidentally?

[Roger Gawley]

Can an English play glissandos a la Jerry Lee Lewis, incidentally?

 

The instrument could. The player would have to work hard. Just wiping your hand along the keyboard is not going to do the job.

[Stephen Chambers]

Beatles songs have clever chords and lyrical tunes so I know they often work...

Did you know the Beatles used free-reed instruments in no less than 28 recorded songs? In fact they used them on all of the 13 British LPs except for two.

 

I was after the sort of basic rock that started in the fifties and is always there, occasionally being 'rediscovered' (punk, eg, and what do they call the Kaiser Chief's style?) basic raw driving predominantly three chord trick style stuff.

You might like to check out these Accordion in Pop & Rock, and Punk links: http://www.accordionlinks.com/rock.html

 

Can an English play glissandos a la Jerry Lee Lewis, incidentally?

Regondi could, but they're much easier on a PA...

[Robert Booth]

Dirge, have you heard much Tex-Mex pop music? Lots of those tunes come pretty close to the raw feel that you describe; kind of a rockabilly, country sound with bits of zydeco and Latino puro loco tossed to deepen the cross cultural confusion. Those guys usually use two and three- row button accordions, but I should think that with your Duet you could approach some of the musics pretty well.

Like most Rock n' roll, its often melodramatic and over the top, but that's why we love it.

A personal fave: Freddy Fenders' classic, "Wasted Days and Wasted Nights." It got me through my sophomore year of study in the dorms, a feat for which I shall be eternally grateful.

[david_boveri]

Yes, it is a little difficult to make the sound fit the genre but there are some things that come out sounding very good. I've been working up a few of Carlos Santanas' songs, some of the slower, soulful tunes. The long guitar cries of "Samba Pa Ti "or "Europa" come out well, close in feel to Santanas' intent, especially when augumented by a high lofty ceiling to add some body to the sound. Try 'em-you'll like 'em.

RB

 

 

OK I'll give it a go. Thank you.

 

I wasn't really after how to play r&r with a six piece band, sorry those of you that suggested that but it's a bit of a pushover playing the keyboard part and leaving the rock n roll to the ensemble, isn't it? I was more interested in solo, perhaps with an optional accoustic guitar to provide the percussion.

 

Beatles songs have clever chords and lyrical tunes so I know they often work, but again, they're a bit outside the brief.

 

I was after the sort of basic rock that started in the fifties and is always there, occasionally being 'rediscovered' (punk, eg, and what do they call the Kaiser Chief's style?) basic raw driving predominantly three chord trick style stuff. Every time I try it I feel the result belongs more in the folk club.

 

Can an English play glissandos a la Jerry Lee Lewis, incidentally?

 

i agree with you... i never thought of trying to piano/organ thing, because i want to do arrangements which capture the whole essence of rock--and whenever i think of starting a pop/rock band, i imagine playing lead on the concertina (which makes me realize i should have learned guitar instead! ), and having the concertina be an integral part of the sound, or not at all.

 

i find beatles music to have the same problems that all rock and pop music have when i try to play them on the concertina. the fact that they are melodic makes them easy to play, but the feel still isn't there. it don't mean a think if it ain't got that swing...

 

can you post a link to what you mean by jerry lee's glissandi? i cant think of what you mean off the top of my head (sorry).

Beatles songs have clever chords and lyrical tunes so I know they often work...

Did you know the Beatles used free-reed instruments in no less than 28 recorded songs? In fact they used them on all of the 13 British LPs except for two.

 

i didn't realize that about the beatles. now i'm going to have to start obsessively trying to find the free reeds.

[LangoLee]

Did you know the Beatles used free-reed instruments in no less than 28 recorded songs? In fact they used them on all of the 13 British LPs except for two.

 

Mostly harmonicas with the occasional bit of harmonium (on the mellower, less 'rocky' songs), right? The harmonium remains a much maligned and underrated instrument.

 

check out that link for "hey delilah" and you'll see... there is no drum kit in the entire song. although i would not classify this as rock and roll, dirge only used that nomenclature in the title of this thread, and henceforth referred to pop in the original post, so i think it is fair to muddy the distinction. even though there is no drum kit in or bass guitar in the song, i still would consider it rock. the guitar is not even electric... it is clearly acoustic, and the orchestral strings (i can't tell which instruments) accompanying singing are not amplified either. the song topped the hot 100 in 2007, which is the same chart that pioneers of rock like ray charles, elvis, chubby checker, the beatles, etc all topped ~50 years ago.

 

Listened to 'Hey there Delilah'. Think I would describe it as acoustic singer-songwriter type stuff rather than rock, but I take your point. I think the reason why the guitar (acoustic or electric) has become the hegemonic instrument in popular music is because: A) it has a naturally rhythmic/percussive sound, and quick note decay (except where effects pedals are used), and it is seen as a 'mellow' complement to the human voice (except in heavy metal and more abrasive styles). The problems facing the concertina as a challenger are, conversely, that: A) the notes do not decay, but will either be short & sharp or extended and drone-like, and, more importantly, the tone tends to be quite bright or even strident, somewhat 'voice-like' in itself, so when sung to, the result can sound almost 'choral', usually not what pop/rock players are aiming for (same reason you rarely hear oboes or clarinets in pop).

 

If a banjo can't appear in a pop context without people thinking of bluegrass, then a concertina (which, if it exists in the popular consciousness at all, might be 'one of those things played on a pirate ship') would have a much harder struggle. However, it is eminently well-suited to singer-songwriters or 'independent' musicians with more adventurous tastes (after all, if Radiohead can hit the charts using an ondes martinot...).