ragtimer Posted October 27, 2007 Posted October 27, 2007 (edited) (Please excuse the mis-typed Title; don't know how to edit that yet) Here are some photos of the insides of this rare (only 12 made) instrument. But first, a side-by-side shot next to the Stagi 46-key Hayden: And a close-up of the RH buttons, which conform pretty much to Brian's specifications: A look at the LH (bass) reed cells, showing how each cell is screwed to the action board, and each reed is screwed to its cell, making for easy maintenance: The bandoneon-style three-level action, viewed from above: And from the side: A button, lever, and pad, showing riveted linkage betweeen button and lever end. Note the hole in center, for the common pivot wire (NOT a good maintenance feature, sorry!): A nicely built instrument in many ways. Any comments? --Mike K. Edited October 27, 2007 by ragtimer
ttonon Posted October 28, 2007 Posted October 28, 2007 Hi Ragtimer, I can't locate the springs for return key motion. Are they visible in the photos? Best regards, Tom
ragtimer Posted October 29, 2007 Author Posted October 29, 2007 (edited) Hi Ragtimer, I can't locate the springs for return key motion. Are they visible in the photos? They are pretty well hidden, Tom, but just barely visible. Look at the photo of the action viewed from above. Where the levers cross the top pivot rail, note that on the left there are small holes under each lever. The little helical compression springs hide in those holes. Each one pushes up on its lever. The pivot wire is to the right of the springs holes, but is not visible. Thus the spring pushes up on the button end of the lever. The topmost lever in the picture has been removed, and you can maybe see the end of the spring inside its hole. If you turned hte action upside down while levers were out, the springs would just fall right out. But they're not hard to fish out of the holes for safe keeping. The holes are carefully drilled to just the right depth, to provide the right amount of return force. The action is pretty light and easy to play. --Mike K. Edited October 29, 2007 by ragtimer
gwhlevy Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 (edited) Thanks for the "tour", Mike! I own one of the 12 Bastaris, too. (I thought there were 10 for some reason.) I love the action of it compared to my Stagi, which feels "clunky" (for lack of a better word). I also like the "compass" of the instrument. The extra sharps and flats are very handy to me as I play traditional Jewish music as well as some modern Messianic-Jewish worship music which is all written mostly in minor keys. Most of the songs are in Em, Am, and Dm, but there are a few in C#m and Bbm, so those "extra" sharps and flats are nice to have. I have occasionally come across a new song someone has written in F#m, which I think would be a headache to finger on either the Bastari or the Stagi. One of the things I like about the Bastari is that the sharps and flats are fully redundant in the "F" row, and partly redundant in the "C" row of buttons. In the "C" row only the G#/Ab is redundant. Sometimes I find my self wishing that it was fully redundant, too, like when I come across one of those songs in F#m, but I guess there are limitations as to how many buttons can be placed in row and still fit the action and all the reeds inside the box! Of course one wouldn't have such limitations on a MIDI Hayden, you could have the full Wiki layout with 3 sharps and flats in each row of buttons. (Ah, my dream...) The only limitation there might be as to how wide you want to make the end caps. Edited March 24, 2008 by gwhlevy
ragtimer Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 Thanks for the "tour", Mike! Good, Grant, you found it! I own one of the 12 Bastaris, too. (I thought there were 10 for some reason.) I think what happened was Brian found one or two more in his private stock, still NIB (new in box). Mine was NIB. I love the action of it compared to my Stagi, which feels "clunky" (for lack of a better word). I don't find the Stagi action clunky, but it's sprung way too stiff for my tastes. I do like the bigger buttons. I also like the "compass" of the instrument. The extra sharps and flats are very handy to me as I play traditional Jewish music as well as some modern Messianic-Jewish worship music which is all written mostly in minor keys. Most of the songs are in Em, Am, and Dm, but there are a few in C#m and Bbm, so those "extra" sharps and flats are nice to have. I have occasionally come across a new song someone has written in F#m, which I think would be a headache to finger on either the Bastari or the Stagi. Funny you should mention it I liek to play Klezmer tunes (I have a Giora Feidman book), and like you have found the extra flat buttons to be very helpful -- tho that Klezmer scale is tuff to play on any keyboard. And I do like minor keys. Yes, even a big Hayden can't cover every key. I sometimes miss being able to play F# Major chord. One of the things I like about the Bastari is that the sharps and flats are fully redundant in the "F" row, and partly redundant in the "C" row of buttons. In the "C" row only the G#/Ab is redundant. Sometimes I find my self wishing that it was fully redundant, too, like when I come across one of those songs in F#m, but I guess there are limitations as to how many buttons can be placed in row and still fit the action and all the reeds inside the box! Of course one wouldn't have such limitations on a MIDI Hayden, you could have the full Wiki layout with 3 sharps and flats in each row of buttons. (Ah, my dream...) The only limitation there might be as to how wide you want to make the end caps. Actually, the real limitation is the human hand, trapped inside the strap. I already find teh far left (flat) butons of the LH side hard to reach -- e.g., an Eb major chord. And I still play an F7 chord using the D# on the far side, since the high Eb is so far down. So already there are buttons I hardly ever can use. You may have seen the thread about the "prone" keyboard (liek a piano keyboard), and how great the W-H layout could be for that. Anyway, it's great to find another Bastari 67 player! --Mike K.
Paul Read Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 Did any of the quality makers make these? I know Wheatsone made some Haydens but were they different to these?
ragtimer Posted March 24, 2008 Author Posted March 24, 2008 Did any of the quality makers make these? I know Wheatsone made some Haydens but were they different to these? AFAIK, Wheatstone (Dickinson) made a few Haydens, but of the "standard" 46 keys. They are very fine. Bob Tedrow has made some 52-key models. RIght now, Wim Wakker has 46 and 65 key models with a reasonable lead time, with traditional reeds. I don't think anyone besides Bastari ever made a Bandoneon (square shaped) version, with octave reed pairs. Others please feel free to corect my errors. --Mike K.
JimLucas Posted March 24, 2008 Posted March 24, 2008 Funny you should mention it I liek to play Klezmer tunes (I have a Giora Feidman book), and like you have found the extra flat buttons to be very helpful -- tho that Klezmer scale is tuff to play on any keyboard. I presume you mean on any Hayden keyboard? On the English, the Klezmer scales are no more difficult than standard major and minor, and all follow essentially the same overall pattern. A scale that mixes both sharps and flats is no harder on an English than a scale with just sharps or just flats.
ragtimer Posted March 25, 2008 Author Posted March 25, 2008 Funny you should mention it I like to play Klezmer tunes (I have a Giora Feidman book), and like you have found the extra flat buttons to be very helpful -- tho that Klezmer scale is tuff to play on any keyboard. I presume you mean on any Hayden keyboard? Yes, I was speaking of the Hayden keyboards only, in this context. The Klezmer scale in E has the jump between F and G#, which is a bit of a hand stretch on the Hayden, Index to Pinky. The Bastari 67 gives you the option of subbing Ab for the G#, but that just moves the jump to the A natural above. Anyway, I've grown pretty comfy with using the G#. Grant, do you use the G# or Ab key in that scale, or maybe uses both in the same tune depending on the flow of the tune? On the English, the Klezmer scales are no more difficult than standard major and minor, and all follow essentially the same overall pattern. A scale that mixes both sharps and flats is no harder on an English than a scale with just sharps or just flats. OK. What I call the "Klezmer scale" is odd in having, for key of E, one sharp, but it's G#, same as the Harmonic Minor scale in A. It gives sheet music editors fits -- sometimes the key signature is E Major, four sharps, with naturals plastered all over the melody notes. Better to use no sharps, and just sharp the G's. --Mike K.
David Barnert Posted March 29, 2008 Posted March 29, 2008 Did any of the quality makers make these? I know Wheatsone made some Haydens but were they different to these? AFAIK, Wheatstone (Dickinson) made a few Haydens, but of the "standard" 46 keys. They are very fine. Bob Tedrow has made some 52-key models. RIght now, Wim Wakker has 46 and 65 key models with a reasonable lead time, with traditional reeds. I don't think anyone besides Bastari ever made a Bandoneon (square shaped) version, with octave reed pairs. Others please feel free to corect my errors. --Mike K. Wheatstone's web site, http://www.wheatstone.co.uk/CWDuet.htm, continues to list the following models: ~ HAYDEN SYSTEM DUET CONCERTINAS ~ No. 1H Rosewood. 46 keys from tenor C to D. 7-fold bellows. £4,430 No. 2H Ebony. Aeola model. 55 keys from tenor Bb to D. 7-fold bellows. 7 1/4" Octagonal. £6,060 No. 3H Ebony. Aeola model. 82 keys from baritone F to C. 9-fold bellows. 10 3/4" Octagonal. £8,160 I have played at least one example of each.
ragtimer Posted March 30, 2008 Author Posted March 30, 2008 Wheatstone's web site, http://www.wheatstone.co.uk/CWDuet.htm, continues to list the following models: ~ HAYDEN SYSTEM DUET CONCERTINAS ~ Good to know "Wheatstone" (Dickinson?) is still making Haydens, and larger than 46 keys too. Any idea what the lead time is? Probably enough to save up the cash No. 1HRosewood. 46 keys from tenor C to D. 7-fold bellows. £4,430 OK, the standard 46 key. That's about US$6600, close to Wim Wakker's new model H1. This is basically what Rich Morse has. No. 2HEbony. Aeola model. 55 keys from tenor Bb to D. 7-fold bellows. 7 1/4" Octagonal. £6,060 Interesting size, not seen before. Could be a nice compromise between fixing up the missing notes on a 46 and getting too big. I'll have to visit the web site and see how it compares with Tedrow's 52 key. No. 3HEbony. Aeola model. 82 keys from baritone F to C. 9-fold bellows. 10 3/4" Octagonal. £8,160 Wow! That's big, and priced to boot! Talk about getting lost in a sea of buttons. David, how many keys has yours? I have played at least one example of each. Well, I'd sure like to try any of them! --Mike K.
ragtimer Posted March 30, 2008 Author Posted March 30, 2008 OK, the standard 46 key. That's about US$6600, close to Wim Wakker's new model H1.This is basically what Rich Morse has. Oops -- after visiting the Wheatstone web site, I realized that what I took for a Euro symbol (funny E) is really a Pound sign (funny L). So those prices are about 33% higher than I thought, and higher than Wakker's. Nice boxes, I'm sure. The web page doesn't show the details of the button allocations, just the ranges. --Mike K.
Paul Read Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 Interesting size, not seen before. Could be a nice compromise between fixing up the missing notes on a 46 and getting too big. I'll have to visit the web site and see how it compares with Tedrow's 52 key. [quote I'm not sure there is a comparison there. With the possible exception of Dippers I think Wheatstones are in a class of their own.]
David Barnert Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 Good to know "Wheatstone" (Dickinson?) is still making Haydens, and larger than 46 keys too.Any idea what the lead time is? Probably enough to save up the cash I have a 55-key Aeola on order since 1989 for which I have paid a deposit and first installment (in 1992). Rich Morse ordered one at the same time (actually, he ordered them both and I bought into the deposit on one of them). No. 2HEbony. Aeola model. 55 keys from tenor Bb to D. 7-fold bellows. 7 1/4" Octagonal. £6,060 Interesting size, not seen before. Could be a nice compromise between fixing up the missing notes on a 46 and getting too big. I'll have to visit the web site and see how it compares with Tedrow's 52 key. Here's a picture, right at the top of concertina.net's main Hayden Resource List page. I've also played the Tedrow. Bob makes a very nice instrument and has done a great service to the concertina community in general, but I think even he would agree, as Lloyd Bentsen might have said, he's no Steve Dickinson. No. 3HEbony. Aeola model. 82 keys from baritone F to C. 9-fold bellows. 10 3/4" Octagonal. £8,160 Wow! That's big, and priced to boot! Talk about getting lost in a sea of buttons. David, how many keys has yours? My first experience with this instrument (now owned by Jim Bayless) is fully described (with layout diagram) here. I have the 46. Like Rich's but with metal ends and keys.
ragtimer Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 Interesting size, not seen before. Could be a nice compromise between fixing up the missing notes on a 46 and getting too big. I'll have to visit the web site and see how it compares with Tedrow's 52 key. I'm not sure there is a comparison there. With the possible exception of Dippers I think Wheatstones are in a class of their own.] What I'm really interested in is not so much the overall quality (tho Wim Wakker's new Hayden lineup uses trad tina reeds and may be on a par with WHeatstone's), but rather with how WHeatstone allocated his 55 buttons on the Hayden. Would like ot know just which missing notes and redundant notes he supplied. Tedrow adds some really needed keys with just 6 extra buttons over the stock 46. So what does WHeatstone do with 9 extra keys? --Mike K.
ragtimer Posted March 31, 2008 Author Posted March 31, 2008 Good to know "Wheatstone" (Dickinson?) is still making Haydens, and larger than 46 keys too.Any idea what the lead time is? Probably enough to save up the cash I have a 55-key Aeola on order since 1989 for which I have paid a deposit and first installment (in 1992). Rich Morse ordered one at the same time (actually, he ordered them both and I bought into the deposit on one of them). Wow -- 19 years and counting. I think I'll pass, since my widow won't be interested in learning to play concertina No. 2HEbony. Aeola model. 55 keys from tenor Bb to D. 7-fold bellows. 7 1/4" Octagonal. £6,060 Interesting size, not seen before. Could be a nice compromise between fixing up the missing notes on a 46 and getting too big. I'll have to visit the web site and see how it compares with Tedrow's 52 key. Here's a picture, right at the top of concertina.net's main Hayden Resource List page. I've also played the Tedrow. Bob makes a very nice instrument and has done a great service to the concertina community in general, but I think even he would agree, as Lloyd Bentsen might have said, he's no Steve Dickinson. Bob also helped greatly by adding 6 more keys to the stock 46. Unforch, he's not making Haydens at the moment, while redesigning the reed pan. Cramming all those reeds in seems to haunt Hayden builders! No. 3HEbony. Aeola model. 82 keys from baritone F to C. 9-fold bellows. 10 3/4" Octagonal. £8,160 Wow! That's big, and priced to boot! Talk about getting lost in a sea of buttons. David, how many keys has yours? My first experience with this instrument (now owned by Jim Bayless) is fully described (with layout diagram) here. Yes, I remember that posting, with your comments about trying to get both hands lined up to play in the same key. I really do like the black and white buttons on my Bastari 67, for those of us who don't mind sneaking a peek at our hands at the start of a tune. I have the 46. Like Rich's but with metal ends and keys. OK, a "stocker" but a very fine one. Somehow ISTR your having a larger box. I hope your 55 comes soon. --Mike K.
David Barnert Posted March 31, 2008 Posted March 31, 2008 (tho Wim Wakker's new Hayden lineup uses trad tina reeds and may be on a par with WHeatstone's) As Charlie Chan said: "Every 'Maybe' have little brother: 'Maybe not.' " I hope your 55 comes soon. I'm not holding my breath.
inventor Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 For Harmonic Minor scales I use Just 3 fingerings to play all Harmonic scales on the 67 Square Concertina. I = Index finger,M = Middle finger, R = Ring finger & L = Little finger (Pinkie) Right Hand side. 1) Prefered easiest fingering: e.g. A Harmonic-minor : A - M, B - R, C - I, D - M, E - R, F - I, G# - L. 2) For Sharpest keys e.g. F# Harmonic minor: F# - R, G# - L, A - M, B - R, C# - L, D - M, F (i.e. E#) - I. 3) For the other Keys, e.g. Ab Harmonic Minor: Ab - I, Bb - M, B (i.e. Cb) - L, Db - I, Eb - M, E(i.e. Fb) - L, G - R. For several Harmonic minors you have a choice of two of the above. Inventor.
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now