Fitting Microphones Inside A Concertina

[Dirge]

So starting with http://www.hjcjones.freeserve.co.uk/music/concertina/mike.htm

 

A good article, thank you, Howard. I thought 'I can do that!', but when I looked into buyimg some tie clip mic's I opened my own little can of worms. The mechanics of a tie clip mic are available separately, I think. They would be even smaller, which is good. However I know nothing about this sort of stuff and had great trouble getting any idea at all of the quality. I got the distinct impression that the mic's I was looking at were aimed at students building robots for fun which suggested they might not be exactly hi fi, but perhaps that was just the website. Moreover you can spend very little on these or quite a lot. And the harder I looked the wider the choices seemed to become.

 

I don't want Deutsche Gramafon quality; just not so bad that it sounds wrong. I'd much rather buy cheap before I found I never used it or didn't like the effect. I'm happy with soldering irons and can assemble basic electronics to a plan; I may not completely understand what I've made, mind you.

 

Does anyone have the expert knowledge to cut through all this confusion? Remember I do want them inside the beast and I'm not interested in just throwing money at it.

[Stefan]

I used internal (cheap) mics like written in Howards article but was not happy with the sound at all. It was better than nothing but getting them to sound right was always a problem.

 

I used mics like these which have a power supply (battery): http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/302591/Kondensator-Ansteckmikrofon

 

Mics like these (kondenser or electred mics) always need power to work, which is kind of a problem. These battery-packs are cheaply made and there are cables running to and from it. Bad connections are always a problem on stage. Also one of the micros was broken after about one year.

 

Another main problem with internal mics is the distance to the soundsource. The ideal place would be right in the middle of the reedpan, but the keys are in the way. If you imagine a microphone placed about 2 centimetres from one pad and about 10 centimetres from another, that is sonically a big difference. That means the close one would be much louder than the other.

 

Also the mics must be able to take a certain sound pressure level. That means how loud a sound can be before the mic starts to distort. Cheap mics often have a problem with that.

 

I guess (because I don´t have experience with that), if you want a natural and even sound, the best would be a system like this, where the mics are mounted outside the concertina and raised about 10 cm from the fretboard. http://www.accusound.com/product-list/concertina/product/23-concertina-omni-microphone-system

 

But you asked for an internal solution. My suggestion would be: Buy some moderately priced mics (not the very cheap ones), I would recommend mics with an omni-directional pattern. That means they pick up sound not from a certain direction (e.g cardoid pattern), but from everywhere. At the very end there sould be an XLR connection. Get a small mixer for power-supply, here is an example: http://www.thomann.de/de/alesis_multimix_4usb.htm. You could also use the mixer for monitoring, e.g. with small earphones.

 

Here is what I did. Because I play at high loudness-levels (I run the microphones through guitar-effects) I wanted the mics to be as close as possible, to avoid feedback. I use these mics: http://www.thomann.de/de/akg_c_417_ph.htm?sid=2da5a20bb96d94491347ffd722d141e9. They have an XLR connection which I plug into a mixer for phantom-power.

 

I stiched the mics into small pieces of felt and attached these with velcro to the handles right under my hands. This works well for me and there is the advantage, that you can use the mics for different concertinas. Switching is very fast.

 

Here are some pictures:

[Dirge]

That is a pretty good fix Stefan; I didn't want the mic's out on stalks but that is nearly as neat as internal and very simple.

 

So these don't need a battery pack, but presumably the mixing desk people get stereo? Or do you have some little device where you can set your own balance? (Told you I didn't have much of a clue.)

 

How about a mic' in the middle of the concertina? It struck me that one small hole going straight down through the reed pan and then glue the mic' in with silicon or something so the pick up part was on the bellows side would be easy and do little damage then you'd just have a small cable to lead through the mechanism. Could you get away with one mic' and isn't this what accorion players do?

[ttonon]

Dirge, if you decide to go with an electret mic, you will find they have very good audio quality, with minimum cost. I would suggest the Panasonic WM 61A, obtainable at Digikey, for less than two dollars each. You can access a data sheet here, which gives their frequency response as well as a suggested hook up circuit. I would also recommend an external mic setup, much like Stefan recommends, with one mic for each side of the instrument. A stereo cord can then take the signal to an amplifier. If you decide to use a battery pack on the instrument instead of phantom power, you need only one or two AAA batteries, and you can use a 1/8" stereo plug/jack on the instrument side, with a standard 1/4" phono plug on the amplifier side of the cord, which will plug into the standard "high impedance" input of your amplifier.

 

Best regards,

Tom

www.bluesbox.biz

Edited April 6, 2013 by ttonon

[Dirge]

An electret is what Howard's solution used so I was on that route. But the little things you highlight were the sort of thing I'd found, Tom; at $2 each it was hard to believe they did more than just react to a noise.

 

On the other hand Stefan's solution is so neat and simple.

[Geoff Wooff]

I have used a Micorvox system which works in the same way as Stefan's and I agree with him that the upper side of the hand rail is a good place for placement. It is near the centre of the ends and thus distance from the mics to the sound holes is as even as possible. It is also the least invaisive. Even the little microphones on stalks require some sort of fixing being made on the wooden ends. As for internal microphones.... the natural sound of a concertina is on the outside...!

[Dirge]

"the natural sound of a concertina is on the outside...!"

 

Yes I'd thought of that but i really have no idea whether it is important or not.

[Geoff Wooff]

"the natural sound of a concertina is on the outside...!"

 

Yes I'd thought of that but i really have no idea whether it is important or not.

Possibly and possibly not..... the sound goes in and out depending on air flow and the resulting sound either way is, for practical purposes, the same.. on the outside.... so why drill holes if it is not needfull?

Edited April 7, 2013 by Geoff Wooff

[Dirge]

 

 

"the natural sound of a concertina is on the outside...!"

 

Yes I'd thought of that but i really have no idea whether it is important or not.

Possibly and possibly not..... the sound goes in and out depending on air flow and the resulting sound either way is, for practical purposes, the same.. on the outside.... so why drill holes if it is not needfull?

 

 

Well we're talking little holes out of sight in inert bits that could be permanently plugged with a length of cocktail stick covered in glue once redundant, not ruddy great bruisers of things, so it doesn't worry me. IF it works. These things are so tiny I thought you could mount them in the centre of the inside face of the reedpan, That would put them a layer of wood away from any action noise. Would the sound change with bellows movement though? I think the bottom line here is if no one else has actual relevant experience I shall forget this part and play a little safer.

[Geoff Wooff]

 

 

"the natural sound of a concertina is on the outside...!"

 

Yes I'd thought of that but i really have no idea whether it is important or not.

Possibly and possibly not..... the sound goes in and out depending on air flow and the resulting sound either way is, for practical purposes, the same.. on the outside.... so why drill holes if it is not needfull?

 

Well we're talking little holes out of sight in inert bits that could be permanently plugged with a length of cocktail stick covered in glue once redundant, not ruddy great bruisers of things, so it doesn't worry me. IF it works. These things are so tiny I thought you could mount them in the centre of the inside face of the reedpan, That would put them a layer of wood away from any action noise. Would the sound change with bellows movement though? I think the bottom line here is if no one else has actual relevant experience I shall forget this part and play a little safer.

Getting away from action noise ... yes, that could be a good reason..... someone has probably done it...

[Dirge]

someone has probably done it...

I might do a search on the accordion websites and see what they do.

[Dirge]

How about this then, from MusicPlayer.com under 'Your favorite accordian miking techniques'

 

A poster comments:

 

"One of my clients is a professional accorianist - whatever that is.

 

He prefers miniature mics mounted in the bowels (bellows) of the accorian strung with rubber bands across the middle. I don't know if this is practical for you, but it's the only technique of, after about 20 years of playing, that he's been happy with."

 

Further down the same page was another suggestion, unkind but funny:

 

"I like to mount the mike on the rear bumper of a car and record the sound as it slowly backs up over the accordian. What a great sound!"

 

Further down still everyone else dissembowels that particular accordion player in his absence for his cluelessness, one poster making a point that he is deliberately not referring to him as a 'musician'. So much for that then...

[Dirge]

But I find things like this, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clip-on-Small-Electret-Microphone-Visor-Clip-2-5-mm-Plug-12-Ft-Long-Cable-/280862353958?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Microphones&hash=item4164b36a26 no name on it, but if you're just out to be heard with a rather raucous and amateurish band it'll probably do won't it? Or should I go for something with a 'name' on it?

 

But the velcro on the rails would be dead simple witha pair of these.

 

PS looking at Howard's piece again I see he just bought his tie clip mic's from Tandy and he doesn't seem to have had any quality problems.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Dirge

[cboody]

An electret is what Howard's solution used so I was on that route. But the little things you highlight were the sort of thing I'd found, Tom; at $2 each it was hard to believe they did more than just react to a noise.

 

On the other hand Stefan's solution is so neat and simple.

Years ago I had a couple of guys build a set of mikes for me for recording from electret condensers from Radio Shack (Tandy). I think the mikes may have cost $2.00 each and maybe less. They needed to be powered, but the recorder I had could power them even when recording from the battery. The sound was just plain excellent. I used them for years...until I purchased a new recorder with built in mikes. Frankly I think the sound of those cheapy mikes was better. If you'd have a problem with them I would think it would be more with picking up the clatter of the action than anything else. But at that price you can afford to experiment. It was rumored they were the same mike elements that were in some of the $200.00 mikes, though I don't know about that. I just checked and here's the info on the ones I used. I see they are up to $3.99

 

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062216&locale=en_US

 

I seem to recall there is a diagram with them indicating how to wire things up. You can carry power through the same cord as the mike connector with no problem. Any decent electronics guy can stick things together for you. A couple of computer repair guys where I worked did mine. All said and done I had much less than $10.00 in the whole project.

 

I did a google search on "wire up electret microphone element" and came up with lots of info including many wireup methods on youtube. BTW we never used any resistor/capacitor circuitry in what I had, but that might have been because of the way the power source worked.

Edited April 8, 2013 by cboody

[Wolf Molkentin]

He prefers miniature mics mounted in the bowels (bellows) of the accorian strung with rubber bands across the middle. I don't know if this is practical for you, but it's the only technique of, after about 20 years of playing, that he's been happy with."

 

This happens to be quite similar to the installation at one of my PAs. Not in need for miking at the time of acquiring the instrument I immediately removed this whole ramshackle looking and even rattling rubber-band thing. Thus I can't judge on the sonical outcome from personal experience..., just report the bare fact istself...

[Geoff Wooff]

I awoke this morning with the idea of suspending one or two tiny microphones from the central fold(s) of the bellows, as in the above mentioned accordion . this would eliminate any mechanical transfer of 'action' noise through the wood of the end assemblies directly to the microphone bodies mounted there on.

So I lay in bed thinking about this and how sound pressure waves travel back up the current of air (up- wind so to speak) and all that imports of this on my own work etc etc blaa blaa blaa....

 

THEN I came upon one draw back of doing this with a Duet Concertina; if we imagine that all the sounds we hear from the instrument are also present Inside the bellows then putting a microphone in there eliminates the posibilities of seperating and balancing the outputs of each end. You will get a monophonic effect.

 

The Duets and Anglos are ideally set up to have a small mic attached to the handrails. With one of my EC's I have used two small mics Velcro'ed to the ends with two positions , one favouring the upper range and one towards the bass..... and thus I would shift the mics depending on the piece and the effects I wanted however , the results were less than ideal and I had only done this to plug into a small guitar amplifier with the aim of boosting the volume of that concertina so that I could hear it in a very Noisy band.

 

The best results came when I changed to playing a LOUDER concertina that I CAN hear without electrical aids.

[Dirge]

Right we're using a couple of cheap electrets; we're not going to be impressed by fancy names we're going to try the cheap ones first. They may still get built into the instrument or get strapped to the rails in some way; the jury's still out on that one, but if they go into the instrument it won't be in the middle, Geoff. Anyway HJ says his method works; so do you and others, why get clever when I'm so hugely out of my depth anyway? If they're on the rails I buy tie clip style mic's because they are ready to go; if I decide to put them inside I buy bare electrets so I can build it all as tiny as poss. Finished mic's fitted as supplied straight onto the rails are miles ahead at the moment. OK so far? I like this; it seems too easy.

 

Now then; next clueless b****ard's question. So I have wires sticking out of my concertina. What do I need connect to them to be able to plug into a mixing desk? I'm thinking I need something that will combine the sound into one signal with a control that allows me to choose the balance and that this may also be a battery pack; then straight to a lead and jack plug. Is it as simple as that, because simple is what I like...

[Geoff Wooff]

Right we're using a couple of cheap electrets; we're not going to be impressed by fancy names we're going to try the cheap ones first. They may still get built into the instrument or get strapped to the rails in some way; the jury's still out on that one, but if they go into the instrument it won't be in the middle, Geoff. Anyway HJ says his method works; so do you and others, why get clever when I'm so hugely out of my depth anyway? If they're on the rails I buy tie clip style mic's because they are ready to go; if I decide to put them inside I buy bare electrets so I can build it all as tiny as poss. Finished mic's fitted as supplied straight onto the rails are miles ahead at the moment. OK so far? I like this; it seems too easy.

 

Now then; next clueless b****ard's question. So I have wires sticking out of my concertina. What do I need connect to them to be able to plug into a mixing desk? I'm thinking I need something that will combine the sound into one signal with a control that allows me to choose the balance and that this may also be a battery pack; then straight to a lead and jack plug. Is it as simple as that, because simple is what I like...

Yes it can be as simple as that... which is why I chose the Microvox system. This has a power box, containing an AAA batery, one fixed and one ajustable imput (volume adj.) and one out put jack socket... this can go straight to an amplifier and is a combined mono signal.

Ok this was more expensive than 'micky mouse mics' but avoids the fiddling about and getting someone who is good with these things to help you. So in that way it is the simple solution. If you have more time than money to throw at the project then perhaps a home made solution can be found.

If you have a clattery action .. well... that is another issue which close mic-ing will enhance, in a negative way.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Geoff Wooff