Bandoneon Or Accordion?

[Stephen Chambers]

There's an intriguing 1958 Maugein Bandoneon for sale on eBay France at the moment, but the buttons are on the sides (not the ends) and it has basses for the left hand.

 

 

So by most definitions it's an accordion ...

 

I think it a perfect illustration of just how slippery "definitions" can be!

[JimLucas]

There's an intriguing 1958 Maugein Bandoneon for sale on eBay France at the moment, but the buttons are on the sides (not the ends) and it has basses for the left hand.

 

 

So by most definitions it's an accordion ...

 

I think it a perfect illustration of just how slippery "definitions" can be!

Ah, that use of the word "bandoneon" is a "description", a "claim", possibly even a "classification", but is it a "definition"?

 

What's your definition of "definition"?

[Robert Booth]

Shouldn't they be...well..."definite?"

[Daniel Hersh]

This is a real question, actually:

 

I know that the seller states that this is a bandoneon, but why? The accordion-style left hand isn't typical of a bandoneon. And even the right hand doesn't look like any bandoneon layout that I've seen, including the unisonoric ones that I could find online. The only thing that seems bandoneon-like to my inexpert eye is the fact that some of the reeds are laid flat rather than all being on blocks.

 

There's an intriguing 1958 Maugein Bandoneon for sale on eBay France at the moment, but the buttons are on the sides (not the ends) and it has basses for the left hand.

 

So by most definitions it's an accordion ...

 

I think it a perfect illustration of just how slippery "definitions" can be!

Ah, that use of the word "bandoneon" is a "description", a "claim", possibly even a "classification", but is it a "definition"?

 

What's your definition of "definition"?

[Stephen Chambers]

I know that the seller states that this is a bandoneon, but why? The accordion-style left hand isn't typical of a bandoneon. And even the right hand doesn't look like any bandoneon layout that I've seen, including the unisonoric ones that I could find online.

Daniel,

 

In fact French accordion players have a century-old tradition of playing tangos, and makers have long built Bandoneons specially for them with the same fingering as their accordions. Many now use C-system "Continental chromatic" Bandoneons, but it would be more usual to see them with "free bass", rather than the "Stradella bass" of this example. My friend, the Bandoneon maker, Harry Geuns builds beautiful hybrid instruments of this type;

 

 

as well as offering a cheaper version made for him in China.

 

I would feel that if the maker and the player both believe the instrument to be a Bandoneon, then it must be so. Though as concertina players, most of us who use this website may have difficulty agreeing ...

 

I have an excellent CD of my favourite (living) French accordion player, your namesake Daniel Colin, playing tango music very convincingly on such an instrument.

[Daniel Hersh]

Not meaning to be pedantic (or perhaps actually meaning to be pedantic)...

 

Of course you're right that the people who play and make these have more of a right to name them than I do. But still...do you know why they choose to call them bandoneons rather than chromatic accordions, even in the cases when they've got that stradella bass? Is it because of the square shape? The way the reeds are mounted? The fact that they're used for tango music?

 

OK, I'll stop now...

 

I know that the seller states that this is a bandoneon, but why? The accordion-style left hand isn't typical of a bandoneon. And even the right hand doesn't look like any bandoneon layout that I've seen, including the unisonoric ones that I could find online.

Daniel,

 

In fact French accordion players have a century-old tradition of playing tangos, and makers have long built Bandoneons specially for them with the same fingering as their accordions. Many now use C-system "Continental chromatic" Bandoneons, but it would be more usual to see them with "free bass", rather than the "Stradella bass" of this example. My friend, the Bandoneon maker, Harry Geuns builds beautiful hybrid instruments of this type as well as offering a cheaper version made for him in China.

 

I would feel that if the maker and the player both believe the instrument to be a Bandoneon, then it must be so. Though as concertina players, most of us who use this website may have difficulty agreeing ...

 

I have an excellent CD of my favourite (living) French accordion player, your namesake Daniel Colin, playing tango music very convincingly on such an instrument.

[Stephen Chambers]

Of course you're right that the people who play and make these have more of a right to name them than I do. But still...do you know why they choose to call them bandoneons rather than chromatic accordions, even in the cases when they've got that stradella bass? Is it because of the square shape? The way the reeds are mounted? The fact that they're used for tango music?

Daniel,

 

I guess the simple answer is "Yes".

 

They were designed to resemble a Bandonion in size/shape/handling/tone, so that Tango music could be performed more convincingly than is possible on a musette accordion.

 

But I think the eBay example, with Stradella bass, really pushes the envelope on "concertina" definition!

 

And what would they make of it in Argentina?

[JimLucas]

And what would they make of it in Argentina?

A planter for growing small yerba mate trees?

[michael stutesman]

I remember reading somewhere that Astor Piazzola said that accordions sounded 'too happy' for tango music. I beleive bandoneon reeds are a bit different and there are usually two reeds to each note tuned an octave apart. Also the bellows typically has three sections in the bandoneon. It makes sense to me that it would be the 'sound' that is the main distiguishing feature and this would come from the reeds.

[Stephen Chambers]

It makes sense to me that it would be the 'sound' that is the main distinguishing feature and this would come from the reeds.

Michael,

 

But in that case, shouldn't Herbert Greene's "Concordeon" be classified as an Accordion?

[michael stutesman]

It makes sense to me that it would be the 'sound' that is the main distinguishing feature and this would come from the reeds.

Michael,

 

But in that case, shouldn't Herbert Greene's "Concordeon" be classified as an Accordion?

 

 

I bet if you heard it roaring away at full sound in the next room you would think 'accordion'

[Stephen Chambers]

I bet if you heard it roaring away at full sound in the next room you would think 'accordion'

Michael,

 

Well "free-bass accordion" anyway!

 

But that's really my point in this thread. Physically there is no denying that the Concordeon is a concertina, so where do you draw the line? Or is there ultimately a line at all?

 

After all, both the concertina family and the modern accordion one share a common ancestor in Demian's Accordion of 1829!

[Daniel Hersh]

Well, here's where I draw the line, first posted here:

 

To me the key points in distinguishing concertinas and accordions are:

* concertinas ALWAYS have buttons that travel toward the bellows when pressed and accordions ALWAYS have buttons or keys that travel toward the player

* concertinas ALMOST ALWAYS have left- and right-hand key layouts based on the same principle and accordions ALMOST ALWAYS have left- and right-hand layouts based on different principles

* concertinas USUALLY have only buttons that play one note (though perhaps with multiple reeds in multiple octaves) and accordions USUALLY have buttons on the left-hand side that play chords.

 

But of course there are hybrids that fall between these in way or another, such as the "bandoneons" discussed in this thread, bandonikas, and instruments like the one desribed in this response to my earlier post.

 

Daniel

 

But that's really my point in this thread. Physically there is no denying that the Concordeon is a concertina, so where do you draw the line? Or is there ultimately a line at all?

 

After all, both the concertina family and the modern accordion one share a common ancestor in Demian's Accordion of 1829!

[michael stutesman]

Well, here's where I draw the line, first posted here:

 

To me the key points in distinguishing concertinas and accordions are:

* concertinas ALWAYS have buttons that travel toward the bellows when pressed and accordions ALWAYS have buttons or keys that travel toward the player

* concertinas ALMOST ALWAYS have left- and right-hand key layouts based on the same principle and accordions ALMOST ALWAYS have left- and right-hand layouts based on different principles

* concertinas USUALLY have only buttons that play one note (though perhaps with multiple reeds in multiple octaves) and accordions USUALLY have buttons on the left-hand side that play chords.

 

But of course there are hybrids that fall between these in way or another, such as the "bandoneons" discussed in this thread, bandonikas, and instruments like the one desribed in this response to my earlier post.

 

Daniel

 

But that's really my point in this thread. Physically there is no denying that the Concordeon is a concertina, so where do you draw the line? Or is there ultimately a line at all?

 

After all, both the concertina family and the modern accordion one share a common ancestor in Demian's Accordion of 1829!

 

 

The entire universe is made up of fuzzy definitions. Why should free reed instruments be an exception?

[Stephen Chambers]

The entire universe is made up of fuzzy definitions. Why should free reed instruments be an exception?

Exactly!

 

In fact their nomenclature has always been a confused nightmare, going back to their early 19th century origins, and just as you think you've mastered it, it mutates once more ...

[ragtimer]

Well, here's where I draw the line, first posted here:

 

To me the key points in distinguishing concertinas and accordions are:

* concertinas ALWAYS have buttons that travel toward the bellows when pressed and accordions ALWAYS have buttons or keys that travel toward the player

* concertinas ALMOST ALWAYS have left- and right-hand key layouts based on the same principle and accordions ALMOST ALWAYS have left- and right-hand layouts based on different principles

* concertinas USUALLY have only buttons that play one note (though perhaps with multiple reeds in multiple octaves) and accordions USUALLY have buttons on the left-hand side that play chords.

Another "sometimes/mostly/usually" distinction:

Accordions with more than one reed per note usually have stops (register slides, switches) to turn some of the reed sets on or off. (though my Hohner "Preciosa" Club accordion or melodeon does not).

But I wonder if any concertina with multiple reeds per note has registers. I guess Chemnitzers do, and maybe Bandoneons.

 

And just to add to the confusion, "Melodeon" in most of the USA refers to an early type of reed organ, with open spaced legs udner the instrument, which was contained in a rectangular case. Pumped with one foot, and often jsut one set of reeds and no stops. Like the larger, floor model American reed organ, it runs on suction.

 

European "harmoniums" operate on pressure.