Baritone English 48 Key Layout Stagi

[StephenTx]

Colleague, I purchased a new Baritone - Stagi (not to mention the Wheatstone and Lachneal---another story). Anyhow in taking my Skype lesson today with Pauline deSnoo, I discovered that the layout of my Baritone is not standards and amoung my concerns is the easy of transitioning between instruments. Can anyone shed light on this for me? I read a 2004 thread that Jim Lucas participated in regarding the Baritone key layout however I am still confused. I definitely ordered a Baritone and was not told I would have anything different as what I had read was the key layout was the same. Below is the key layout for my Stagi...your input etc etc will be much appreciated.

StephenTx

 

PS the jp is a little hard to read. on the left the lowest notes are G# G B bflat the right F# F A Aflat

Edited August 27, 2011 by StephenTx

[saguaro_squeezer]

Wow, Stephen ... that chart almost seems backwards. It made me realize how much EC I'd put out of my head in the Crane transition. I remember that my Morse Baritone had Ab as the lowest note on the left hand (3rd finger, 4th row) and G as the lowest note on the right hand (1st finger, 2nd row). Baritone should finger just like a treble EC, just one octave lower. If yours follows the attached chart, it seems that the hands are swapped and it starts a note lower??? Are we talking about the right and left of hands as you look down on the concertina as you hold it?

[JimLucas]

I read a 2004 thread that Jim Lucas participated in regarding the Baritone key layout however I am still confused. I definitely ordered a Baritone and was not told I would have anything different as what I had read was the key layout was the same. Below is the key layout for my Stagi...your input etc etc will be much appreciated.

The difference, in my terminology (which I didn't originate, but derives from Wheatstone's), is between a "baritone" and a "baritone treble". You appear to be in possession of the other side of the difference (your Stagi) from what you had before (your Morse).

 

Specifically, your Stagi is set up as a baritone-treble, not as a standard octave-transposing baritone. If the latter is what you want/need, you should return the instrument and request/demand a proper replacement. But if it's currently your only English and you don't want to go to that trouble, it should be easy enough to get used to. The symmetries are still the same.

 

To reiterate the difference:

• The layout on the plain baritone Englsih is identical to that on the treble English, except that the note sounded by each button is an octave lower than on the treble.
  
• The baritone-treble, on the other hand (literally, if you'll pardon the pun), has the notes of each button in the same octave as the treble, though the entire array of notes/buttons is shifted "upward" (away from your body on the ends of the instrument) by two rows to accomodate the additional notes of the baritone range. (And if it keeps to 48 buttons, like your Stagi, two rows of buttons -- an octave of notes -- "disappear" off the top.)
  

It's the nature of Wheatstone's fingering system that successive octaves of any given note are located at opposite ends of the instrument, thus the one-octave difference in the notes sounded by the button at a particular location is often described as "mirror image". (It's actually a little more complex than a simple mirror, but only a little.)

 

FWIW:

In the "English" layout, 14 buttons comprise an octave, including the two duplications (D#/Eb and G#/Ab). But two full rows on each side add up to 16 buttons. This is another way of describing why the octave appears in the opposite hand, but it also means that adding two

full

rows below the treble range on a baritone-treble leaves two "extra" buttons beyond the octave-lower low G. That's where your F and F# come from. (And in the pattern of the English layout, their identities are unambiguous.) In fact, old Wheatstone price lists indicate that (at least on 56-button instruments), the standard range for baritone-trebles ended at the low G; those two additional buttons were left off. But my 64-button baritone-treble does have them, and its array of buttons (though not the notes they sound) is exactly the same as my 64-button tenor-treble.

[saguaro_squeezer]

Thanks for that illuminatoin, Jim!

[StephenTx]

I read a 2004 thread that Jim Lucas participated in regarding the Baritone key layout however I am still confused. I definitely ordered a Baritone and was not told I would have anything different as what I had read was the key layout was the same. Below is the key layout for my Stagi...your input etc etc will be much appreciated.

The difference, in my terminology (which I didn't originate, but derives from Wheatstone's), is between a "baritone" and a "baritone treble". You appear to be in possession of the other side of the difference (your Stagi) from what you had before (your Morse).

 

Specifically, your Stagi is set up as a baritone-treble, not as a standard octave-transposing baritone. If the latter is what you want/need, you should return the instrument and request/demand a proper replacement. But if it's currently your only English and you don't want to go to that trouble, it should be easy enough to get used to. The symmetries are still the same.

 

To reiterate the difference:

• The layout on the plain baritone Englsih is identical to that on the treble English, except that the note sounded by each button is an octave lower than on the treble.
  
• The baritone-treble, on the other hand (literally, if you'll pardon the pun), has the notes of each button in the same octave as the treble, though the entire array of notes/buttons is shifted "upward" (away from your body on the ends of the instrument) by two rows to accomodate the additional notes of the baritone range. (And if it keeps to 48 buttons, like your Stagi, two rows of buttons -- an octave of notes -- "disappear" off the top.)
  

It's the nature of Wheatstone's fingering system that successive octaves of any given note are located at opposite ends of the instrument, thus the one-octave difference in the notes sounded by the button at a particular location is often described as "mirror image". (It's actually a little more complex than a simple mirror, but only a little.)

 

FWIW:

In the "English" layout, 14 buttons comprise an octave, including the two duplications (D#/Eb and G#/Ab). But two full rows on each side add up to 16 buttons. This is another way of describing why the octave appears in the opposite hand, but it also means that adding two

full

rows below the treble range on a baritone-treble leaves two "extra" buttons beyond the octave-lower low G. That's where your F and F# come from. (And in the pattern of the English layout, their identities are unambiguous.) In fact, old Wheatstone price lists indicate that (at least on 56-button instruments), the standard range for baritone-trebles ended at the low G; those two additional buttons were left off. But my 64-button baritone-treble does have them, and its array of buttons (though not the notes they sound) is exactly the same as my 64-button tenor-treble.

[StephenTx]

Jim, Yes thank you so much I truly appreciate your taking time to teach and answer questions. I purchase this Concertina from a very well known and reputable retail store here in the States. I asked for a Baritone and no one suggested that I would be getting anything other that a standard Baritone. I will be calling the owner first thing in the morning and I trust there will be no difficultly in returning it, although your answer to my questions will influence the decision. As you know I also have a Wheatstone (steel reed) and a Lachneal (brass reed) EC's. I am going to primarily use the concertinas to accompany myself, I have VERY BIG TENOR OPERATIC voice and I also like classical, but am rather ecletic in my music choices. I have a question. The lower notes on this Baritone-treble seem very low to me (almost fog horn sounding) and what I am wondering is what there utility would be vs. the quid pro quo of not having the upper two rows? Your thoughts are appreciated. In other words would have the capability of this Concertina be a pro or con relative to what I have?

 

I also have another question for you. My Wheatstone has rosewood ends and I have heard that the metal ended Wheatstones are much louder, considering my BIG VOICE if this would not be a better suited instrument for me? What are the pro's and con's?

 

Finally, as we have been communicating, I thought to myself that this guys seems to know one heck of alot about concertinas....so I Goggled you and my thoughts were validated as I found and read your website http://www.nonce.dk/Concertina/about.htm which I have made one of my favorites. Thank you for being so generous with your knowledge and time.

I look forward to your reply.

Stephen

[JimLucas]

I thought to myself that this guys seems to know one heck of alot about concertinas....so I Goggled...

Such an extreme reaction is unwarranted, I assure you.

 

...I found and read your website http://www.nonce.dk/Concertina/about.htm...

Oh, how embarrassing! (Where's the "ashamed" smiley?)

 

I started that web site several years ago, but I never finished even the "first attempt", so I never announced it publicly. It's been on my list of "things I really need to finish" for far too long, but now that you've unmasked it here "in public", I'm really going to have to make a big push to get it into a shape that I can consider at least acceptable.

 

And by the way, the "official" URL is http://www.concertina.dk/. The address you give is a roundabout way to find it on my server, where I have more than one domain. It looks like I'm also going to have to make some changes so that Google stops showing folks that address.

 

As for your questions, I'll try to answer them, but it may be a while. I'm seriously backlogged with things ranging from preparing websites and a performance to making jam (before the fruit spoils) and herding sheep. If I haven't replied within 2 weeks, though, please send me a PM or email to remind me.

[StephenTx]

Fantastic Customer Service from the Button Box USA Doug owner. This is where I bought the above referenced Stagi Baritone. I spoke to the owner this morning and although it is ultimately my mistake for not asking (and being dumb) that this key layout is the only on Stagi makes in the Baritone. Doug was gracious and without my asking was willing for me to return the instrument. By the way Jim, Doug did mention you knew one another. HERE HERE FOR GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE!

Stephen